Denied Unemployment in WA (file, receive, claim, work)
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I'm writing this on behalf of my wife. She worked for a new restaurant that opened on 3/17 and was terminated 6/29. The only written disciplinary action against her is dated 4/25 for stealing tables. I wont get into the nitty gritty of it, but she is the sweetest person you could ever meet and has NEVER STOLEN. She is 4'8, and the supposed "victim" is a 6'1 male..... Anyways the real story is that they were told to share the table of 18 by the hostess and he told the manager she stole it. The manager was in a bad mood and just wrote her up, and she signed it not wanting to fight the matter because she's very timid.
Fast forward to 6/29 and they are laying off A LOT of people because they over hired for the grand opening like most companies do. She knows several people personally who were let go. She worked her entire shift 6/29, and the manager pulled her into his office and basically said it's not working out. He's getting pressure from the top to let people go, and that she doesn't pay enough attention to detail. No witness in attendance, no papers to be signed, or anything.
She comes home crying and we file for unemployment.... Fast forward a few weeks and we answer some typical questions about why she was fired, how many verbal warnings, write ups, and all that jazz. She continues to get paid unemployment for a few weeks, and then we receive a denial letter stating they reached us for more information, but we did not respond??? We never received anything... I sent in our appeals letter and it is probably on its way there now. The reason for denial was that she was warned for stealing tables on 4/25, and that she continued the action until her termination.
I in my total unbelief that her employer would even fight the issue contacted her manager. He said it was nothing to do with misconduct and gave me the HR ladies number. I called her and explained the situation and hit a stone wall. It was obvious what she was doing.... I called back the manager today to get a statement of some sort, and he was TOTALLY DIFFERENT! He said he never should've talked to me, and that it's in the states hands and that the restaurant isn't involved which for those of us that understand unemployment appeals know that is complete BS. He even admitted to speaking to the HR lady, but then hung up on me when I started to give him the info on how the system really works.
Anyways my questions is what are our odds of losing this thing with one write up and no separation papers? Am I going to have to go through the hassle of trying to get all these 20-24 year old women to actually get up early in the morning to testify at our appeal? Obviously they don't mind, but at the same time this isn't exactly priority one for ex-co-workers.... This entire situation has made me disgusted with humanity. I can't believe there is no penalty for employers exaggerating the facts to try and screw over ex-employees. Can I at least question how many separations there were between 6/1 - 7/31 that were not voluntary? I'm assuming that they can't just fabricate a number, and have to provide some sort of proof correct?
Thanks everyone. I realize this is longer than it needs to be, but I am still so shocked and filled with anger. If my wife didn't have me she probably would've fell right into the trap and just paid back the several hundred dollars she received before the denial letter.
I'm writing this on behalf of my wife. She worked for a new restaurant that opened on 3/17 and was terminated 6/29. The only written disciplinary action against her is dated 4/25 for stealing tables.
the supposed "victim" is a 6'1 male.....they were told to share the table of 18 by the hostess and he told the manager she stole it. The manager was in a bad mood and just wrote her up, and she signed it not wanting to fight the matter because she's very timid.
She worked her entire shift 6/29, and the manager pulled her into his office and basically said it's not working out. she doesn't pay enough attention to detail. No witness in attendance, no papers to be signed, or anything.
She comes home crying and we file for unemployment.... Fast forward a few weeks and we answer some typical questions about why she was fired, how many verbal warnings, write ups, and all that jazz.
She continues to get paid unemployment for a few weeks, and then we receive a denial letter stating they reached us for more information, but we did not respond??? We never received anything... I sent in our appeals letter and it is probably on its way there now.
The reason for denial was that she was warned for stealing tables on 4/25, and that she continued the action until her termination.
Anyways my questions is what are our odds of losing this thing with one write up and no separation papers?
Am I going to have to go through the hassle of trying to get all these 20-24 year old women to actually get up early in the morning to testify at our appeal?
I can't believe there is no penalty for employers exaggerating the facts to try and screw over ex-employees.
Can I at least question how many separations there were between 6/1 - 7/31 that were not voluntary? I'm assuming that they can't just fabricate a number, and have to provide some sort of proof correct?
With one write-up two months BEFORE the actual termination, you have an excellent chance of overturning this denial. Employer needs to prove that "she continued the action until her termination." One warning occurring two months before actual separation is pretty flimsy.
You don't need to get witnesses, although if you can get one to testify one wife's behalf it wouldn't hurt.
Employers lie all the time, with impunity. No sense stressing over a fact of life. Employer may not even show up at appeal hearing. Often they object, hoping you'll go away. When you actually appeal, they disappear.
Questioning employer on additional separations is irrelevant. The only focus should be on employer proving actual dates of incidents after 4/29. If you can disprove the 4/29 incident, so much the better.
for those of us that understand unemployment appeals know that is complete BS.
I can tell right now that it's YOU that doesn't understand the process.
As the employer stated, it is in the state's hands. If you knew the process, you'd know that there are deputies that will deny benefits for the slightest hint of misconduct, and there was some here.
When the questionnaire asked about warnings, it wasn't your place to volunteer information. You were in essences doing the employer's job for them of establishing misconduct.
Unemployment is about the reason that you lost your job. You could have 100 write ups for not wearing your hair in a bun, and if the employer fires you because your shoe was untied, then that is the reason you were fired, and it doesn't matter how many warnings existed about the hair not being in a bun. Also, there is the timing. You don't get to write someone up about an infraction and then fire them for it two months later. You have to do it when it happens or the UI system will fail to see it as misconduct because of there is no causal connection anymore. The warning at the time was the punishment, and you don't get to revisit the issue at a later time to heap on more punishment.
I can also just imagine what all you put in your appeal, and why on earth are you calling the employer after the fact. Only someone that doesn't know the process does that.
Now, start doing this correctly from this moment forward. Make the employer prove what your wife is accussed of having done, and it needs to rise to the level of misconduct.
What's been established so far is that she received a warning for stealing a table. That by no stretch of the imagination means that she did it unless she was duped into admitting to something she didn't do. Generally, most warnings that are signed only acknowledge receipt of the warning, not that you committed the offense.
Next, learn what evidence is. The only first hand-witness to the table stealing event is the 6'1" employee, and he will NOT be at the hearing. That means that only your wife will be there. Anything the manager and HR lady says is HEARSAY, and will carry zero weight at the hearing.
Your wife will be able to testify that she NEVER stole a table, and there will be no one at the hearing that matters to say otherwise. She'll be fine. She needs to get a grasp on what hearsay is so that whenever the employer starts to say, "we were told. . ," or "we got a complaint. . ." she needs to not be timid and say, "objection, hearsay." If she is being accused of something she has the right even in a UI hearing to face her accuser and get to cross examine that person. Only if the employer outright lies and says, "I saw her do it with my own eyes" will she have a problem.
Be sure to go view the evidence file prior to the hearing to see what it says in there. Quite often there is some really good stuff in there where the employer may have already made hearsay statements, and you'll be able to impeach them if they do try the "I saw her do it with my own eyes" trick.
This entire situation has made me disgusted with humanity. I can't believe there is no penalty for employers exaggerating the facts to try and screw over ex-employees.
They can exaggerate all they want... they still have to have documented things on paper to win.
I was fired from a job in June 2013 for talking on my cellphone... at least that's what he told WA ESD. In reality my paycheck had been delayed the previous week... and he was looking to cut payroll so he let me go the very next Friday. He saw me look at my phone to answer a text and fired me on the spot.
I explained everything to WA ESD including:
1) I had no written warnings
2) There was no company handbook and/or rules against cell phone usage
I won because it was ruled that my usage of my phone didn't interfere with his business. I ended up with the last laugh and it was a good one... because that guy was far and away the biggest asshat I've ever had the misfortune to work for... he was a control freak who treated his adult employees like they were in the 3rd grade.
Having signed write-ups works against you... but listen to the advice of those in this thread. They know what they are talking about when it comes to procedure and appeals.
As for WA ESD, I've had 3 short stints on UI over the last 18 months, and it's been a fast painless process. One of the better states when it comes to UI without a doubt.
As someone VERY familiar with the process, let me just say that (a) it is you who does not know how depressingly common this situation is, and (b) you have been given extraordinarily good advice on how to proceed.
Well we got back our hearing date. Surprisingly only two weeks out. It was full of all the supposed evidence of misconduct.
It was pretty entertaining for me personally. My wife was a little hurt, but just because she puts so much effort into her jobs and then they try to penalize you for small mistakes and make it seem like they were every day occurrences.
Anyways the first piece of evidence was her write up for stealing tables which she apparently didn't even sign. The manager said she was hurting employee morale and didn't describe the event at all. He also said she took wrong items to the wrong tables occasionally, because she had made a few errors when first starting. The completely funny thing is that the next piece of evidence is some sort of internal forum for leadership where the manager that wrote her up posted on April 1st saying "She is AMAZING! I gave her the largest section all be herself and she did great". Followed up by another posting on 4/12 saying he was going to write her up for stealing tables and inadequate work performance..... Then the next post is some manager on 6/29 saying "Termed Girl1 and Girl2 today, all paperwork sent!" which lends credibility to the lack of work claim....
The paperwork they filled out for unemployment with the top part being reason for separation they wrote in capital letters "LACK OF WORK", but then below checked the box for "Fired". All the reasons the cited had nothing to do with stealing tables which was what the initial denial letter said she got terminated for.
On the employers separation form they again wrote inconsequential stuff that happened one time throughout her employment like when her jeans ripped in the washer she wore black slacks so they wrote "Failure to wear proper uniform." Under a section on the employers separation form they checked a box basically saying it was accidental/carelessness not deliberate negligence which I would think would help us as well. They also didn't even check the box saying whether or not she was rehireable. They just left it blank.
I'm kind of shocked the employer is going to try and fight this. I'm honestly wondering if they will even show up for the hearing given the complete lack of any evidence. When my wife explains that she never stole tables, and the one time she wore black slacks instead of black jeans was because they ripped and she didn't want to miss work I would think the judge would all but throw it out. I have to think unless they fabricate some kind of evidence the judge would already be leaning in our favor given how ridiculous their paperwork is.
the one time she wore black slacks instead of black jeans was because they ripped and she didn't want to miss work I would think the judge
What is it with you? You don't have to explain something away until it's been established that she actually did it. Doing the explaining-away thing means that you have to ADMIT to it, and then try to justify it. It's HIGH risk.
Doing it your way, and you might get a stickler for a judge that says, "seriously, would it have been too much trouble to stop at the store before work to make sure you had the proper attire?"
Make the employer prove what they say before you start jumping the gun and doing the work for them.
What is it with you? You don't have to explain something away until it's been established that she actually did it. Doing the explaining-away thing means that you have to ADMIT to it, and then try to justify it. It's HIGH risk.
Doing it your way, and you might get a stickler for a judge that says, "seriously, would it have been too much trouble to stop at the store before work to make sure you had the proper attire?"
Make the employer prove what they say before you start jumping the gun and doing the work for them.
Maybe you can clarify what you say at all then? The paperwork as I mentioned above is all over the place with them even accidentally mentioning "Lack of Work" as the reason for separation. I'm assuming you *gasp* actually have to talk after being sworn in. Are you suggesting she lies out right? Takes the fifth? Again we're not going to prove their case for them. We're going to focus on the initial reason for denial which was stealing tables and is completely untrue, but let's assume the judge asks her about the uniform issue what does she say?
Also just as an FYI it is extremely difficult for her to get pants and we have to order them online 90% of the time. She is 4"9 with a fairly wide waste.
I'm assuming you *gasp* actually have to talk after being sworn in. Are you suggesting she lies out right? Takes the fifth? Again we're not going to prove their case for them.
No, you don't always have to talk after being sworn in, and often that is exactly what you should do. She doesn't have to lie, but taking the 5th is a pretty summary of what to do.
It's like this. I doesn't matter that your wife was already denied benefits. The starting point at a hearing on appeal is from the beginning. It's a de novo hearing. Everything that may have been misunderstood by the deputy is out the door. It puts you back at the point with your application, and any other statemens in writing that come accross as admissions staying.
The employer will have to come to the hearing and testify to everything that they are accusing your wife of. If they don't show, you wife shouldn't answer any questions. All she need say is, "we are at this hearing for the employer to prove misconduct, and since they're not here, we're done, right?" It's over. Don't drag things out by thinking that you need to tell a story based on what the employer wrote. That is not the way the hearing works.
If the judge happens to go on a tangent and ask about things the employer wrote, she doesn't have to lie, but rather use the same technique. "It hasn't been proven I stole a table," "it hasn't been proven that the employer has a dress code, let alone that I didn't follow it." Some personnel in the system will gladly lead you down a path so you incriminate yourself, but if you know your rights, then you won't take the bait.
The place you start isn't with what is said on the denial. The place you start is that your wife was discharged, and the employer has proven nothing at this point. You keep out the hearsay, don't confess to anything, you make the employer prove everything that comes out of their mouth. That is the quickest way to win and end the hearing.
https://www.city-data.com/forum/unemp...-help-pls.html this a good thread for the technique I'm trying to teach you. It was a pretty damning story, but that's all it was - A STORY. The video never made to to the hearing, the porter being the only first-hand witness wasn't there. The employer's investigation and results were completely ignored. The judge went too far in my opinion when he asked the employer to get the porter on the phone, but he still had to follow the evidence. The hearing was over in about 5 minutes. Not because this person may not have actually stolen something, but because there was ZERO proof that he did.
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