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Main Street in Dallas hasn't been that for a long time. It has come back into prominence here recently. The Main Street in Dallas is McKinney Avenue. The reason why is retail. West Village has fallen off somewhat as it has gotten a reputation as a hangout. They are now in the process of fixing that designation. Further along McKinney is Knox Park. The Crescent fronts McKinney.
I think I'm Beginning to understand what you are saying.
The issue though is your scale is off.
Let's taste Main Street square as the center of Downtown Houston and we will use Discovery District as the center of Downtown Dallas.
You are right that Houston has a much bigger core grid than Dallas. Here are the two for comparison:
Now when you mention areas that you are comparing you need to focus on scale.
For example you mentioned Houston heights. The Heights is about 4 miles northwest of Houston as the crow flies. That would be equivalent to Love Field from At&T discovery district.
Using Main Street as analogous to McKinney in your example, 2 Miles from Discovery District will get you passed State Thomas, through Uptown to about to West Village.
From Main Street square 2Miles along Main and you are just halfway through Midtown.
4 miles as the crow flies and you are in Highland Park in Dallas. 4 miles from main Street square and you have not even in The Medical Center yet.
Houston's grid is huge. The neighborhoods are large.
It really isn't fair comparing connectivity of neighborhoods that are a mile or two away to neighborhoods that are 4 or five miles away.
The areas around Houston are just as connected as the ones around Dallas if you are comparing areas similarly distant areas.
And I am not an that sold on the connectivity idea either. I have walked from Downtown Houston to Hermann Park before. It is solidly urban development the entire stretch and an unbelievably easy walk.
Hiking outside of Downtown Dallas is not by any stretch of the imagination solid and is kinda dangerous to walk.
Houston's core easily has the better bones because of the huge grid. From UHD to Hermann Park is a 4 mile stretch of continuous urban build. You just don't get that consistent build in Dallas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman54
Indeed. This is why I say central Dallas and central Houston are the same size.
Question: All mega cities develop financial centers. Having said this, do you think the financial center of Houston will develop along Allen Parkway?
That's another confusing statement. The Financial Center in Houston is Downtown.
Allen Parkway might develop into a stretch of Condos overlooking the park, but I wouldn't call that a financial center.
Houston's CBD is just Downtown Houston and is wall to wall towers. If you include the Arts and market distric for Dallas you might as well include east downtown and the 4th ward for Houston
Last edited by atadytic19; 08-15-2023 at 02:10 PM..
I think I'm Beginning to understand what you are saying.
The issue though is your scale is off.
Let's taste Main Street square as the center of Downtown Houston and we will use Discovery District as the center of Downtown Dallas.
You are right that Houston has a much bigger core grid than Dallas. Here are the two for comparison:
Now when you mention areas that you are comparing you need to focus on scale.
For example you mentioned Houston heights. The Heights is about 4 miles northwest of Houston as the crow flies. That would be equivalent to Love Field from At&T discovery district.
Using Main Street as analogous to McKinney in your example, 2 Miles from Discovery District will get you passed State Thomas, through Uptown to about to West Village.
From Main Street square 2Miles along Main and you are just halfway through Midtown.
4 miles as the crow flies and you are in Highland Park in Dallas. 4 miles from main Street square and you have not even in The Medical Center yet.
Houston's grid is huge. The neighborhoods are large.
It really isn't fair comparing connectivity of neighborhoods that are a mile or two away to neighborhoods that are 4 or five miles away.
The areas around Houston are just as connected as the ones around Dallas if you are comparing areas similarly distant areas.
And I am not an that sold on the connectivity idea either. I have walked from Downtown Houston to Hermann Park before. It is solidly urban development the entire stretch and an unbelievably easy walk.
Hiking outside of Downtown Dallas is not by any stretch of the imagination solid and is kinda dangerous to walk.
Houston's core easily has the better bones because of the huge grid. From UHD to Hermann Park is a 4 mile stretch of continuous urban build. You just don't get that consistent build in Dallas.
That's another confusing statement. The Financial Center in Houston is Downtown.
Allen Parkway might develop into a stretch of Condos overlooking the park, but I wouldn't call that a financial center.
In mega cities, the financial district will often form seperate from the downtown area. Manhatten Island for example. Another is the area around The Crescent which is fast becoming the prime financial district of North Texas. If Wells Fargo decided to move its corporate headquarters, I think the place it will locate wouldn't be Irving, but as close to The Crescent as possible.
A recent video that went viral on Youtube highlighted just how empty downtown Houston is compared to its actual development.
Two bridges connect the North Oak Cliff area direct into downtown Dallas from the southwest. Two signature bridges connect West Dallas to Downtown Dallas directly so from the west. Both Cedar Springs and McKinney cut through the grid pattern towards the north. Ross travels out to Greensville Avenue which once served as Central Expressway.
Downtown Houston connects up well south, west, and north. It doesn't connect well to the southwest, the northwest, the northeast, or the southeast because of how it follows a grid pattern.
It won't be connected very well at all towards the east as it isn't connected now and won't be especially in the future after they run all those freeways together.
When all those light rail lines in Dallas are also factored into the equation, I think it's a clear knockout vibe wise.
With its Stemmon's Corridor, Dallas has the only true bona-fide corridor in Texas. For example, if one appliess pressure on the downtown Houston office market, this would have the effect of growing its buildings taller. Do the same to the office market of downtown Dallas and development will squirt out along the Stemmon's Corridor. I think central Dallas stretches out all the way along I-35 to the LBJ..
The nice aspect of the Dallas Design (wholesale) District when compared to the Dallas Market (wholesale) Center is how a lot of creativity can be put in the buildings. It has become a gorgeous part of Dallas. Whereas the market center is just co-op space for wholesale offices.
I think the area around Lake Cliff in North Oak Cliff has the same characteristics potentially as the Lakewood Shopping Center in East Dallas. I'm surprised that no one has noticed yet.
The Dallas Market Center is the largest wholesale merchandise mart in the world. That's one aspect of Dallas' economy that a lot of people don't talk about. People drive past that complex a long Stemmons and the average person don't think much about it. The Dallas World Trade Center alone has 3.1 million sq ft of space. But at the same time, most of it is not open to the public. I think most people know of one aspect of it - The Dallas Market Hall. That's open to the public and they host Boat and RV shows every year it seems like lol.
Lake Cliff is an area too that’s getting slept on. The Dallas streetcar really has helped development there. There are new apartment buildings that sprang up a long it. The old El Fenix on Beckley Ave and Colorado Blvd is gone and replaced with new apts. I ate there as a kid growing up in Oak Cliff.
There's also another new apt building at the next intersection at Beckley Ave and Zang Blvd. You can see some of the original commercial buildings here too. Especially, that triangular building.
You can also see the other apartment building completed in the distance. Residential density is being built around the streetcar line! I love how they try to blend in with the historical commercial buildings across the street.
With its Stemmon's Corridor, Dallas has the only true bona-fide corridor in Texas. For example, if one appliess pressure on the downtown Houston office market, this would have the effect of growing its buildings taller. Do the same to the office market of downtown Dallas and development will squirt out along the Stemmon's Corridor. I think central Dallas stretches out all the way along I-35 to the LBJ.
If you are talking about Stemmons Freeway then pass what you puffing.
You do know that the office market in Houston runs past downtown in each direction right? Allen Parkway, Montrose, Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, Midtown, East Downtown... and on and on all have their own office markets, so what do you mean by put pressure on Downtown market and it will only build up?
Have you been to Houston?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman54
In mega cities, the financial district will often form seperate from the downtown area. Manhatten Island for example. Another is the area around The Crescent which is fast becoming the prime financial district of North Texas. If Wells Fargo decided to move its corporate headquarters, I think the place it will locate wouldn't be Irving, but as close to The Crescent as possible.
Yeah you clearly have not been to Houston.
It doesn't need any more districts.
From Downtown south on Main you get to the medical center which has towers with as much sq feet as downtown Dallas.
From Downtown west on Memorial you get to Uptown which again is a big as Downtown Dallas.
Then in-between
Greenway Plaza
Upper Kirby
Montrose
Bellaire
and others that are escaping my memory are all business districts.
I think you have the wrong idea of Houston.
You should go visit before you make these comments.
I dunno if it is because of zoning or what, but apart from north of downtown, Dallas just doesn't have the regular arterial grid that Houston has where every main artery in every direction is a higher density Corridor like the developments Dallaz had been posting.
The way Houston is developed, every arterial road is fronted by the higher density complexes and retail and the Single family homes are behind the business or apartments.
There are a few areas where sfh front the arteries ( like in Afton Oaks), but Houston isn't generally built like Dallas with sfh right on major arterial roads that close to downtown.
I do admit having all those sfh with trees and greenery makes for a better looking drive. But Houston is building differently on these arteries with taller buildings closer to the street.
If you are talking about Stemmons Freeway then pass what you puffing.
You do know that the office market in Houston runs past downtown in each direction right? Allen Parkway, Montrose, Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, Midtown, East Downtown... and on and on all have their own office markets, so what do you mean by put pressure on Downtown market and it will only build up?
Have you been to Houston?
Yeah you clearly have not been to Houston.
It doesn't need any more districts.
From Downtown south on Main you get to the medical center which has towers with as much sq feet as downtown Dallas.
From Downtown west on Memorial you get to Uptown which again is a big as Downtown Dallas.
Then in-between
Greenway Plaza
Upper Kirby
Montrose
Bellaire
and others that are escaping my memory are all business districts.
I think you have the wrong idea of Houston.
You should go visit before you make these comments.
I dunno if it is because of zoning or what, but apart from north of downtown, Dallas just doesn't have the regular arterial grid that Houston has where every main artery in every direction is a higher density Corridor like the developments Dallaz had been posting.
The way Houston is developed, every arterial road is fronted by the higher density complexes and retail and the Single family homes are behind the business or apartments.
There are a few areas where sfh front the arteries ( like in Afton Oaks), but Houston isn't generally built like Dallas with sfh right on major arterial roads that close to downtown.
I do admit having all those sfh with trees and greenery makes for a better looking drive. But Houston is building differently on these arteries with taller buildings closer to the street.
Houston's look like it has more energy because it is more built up with businesses/ restaurants while Dallas is more strictly residential.
To be honest Houston looks more suburban while Dallas looks exurban. Kinda like you went straight from downtown to the country in Dallas.
The homes in that area was bulldozed for the 12th St expansion, it connected to the Jefferson-12th St Connector that recently closed. They made it a stroad from Polk St to Beckley Ave. That area also declined heavily for a time as well. That entire North Oak Cliff area is in transition.
This is the original width of 12th past Polk St. Notice the original homes. Hopefully, they'll put 12th on a road diet as well. That stretch is known for speeding. At least the city is trying to reverse what it did. I think that's a positive.
Lastly, streets like Jefferson and Zang always been wide since they're boulevards.
Edit: This is what happens when roads are made into stroads. The speeding that this corridor now has was intentional when it was built. They wanted to speed up traffic and retrofit the historic streets akin to the purely suburban stroads that was being built in newly developed parts of town.
If you are talking about Stemmons Freeway then pass what you puffing.
You do know that the office market in Houston runs past downtown in each direction right? Allen Parkway, Montrose, Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, Midtown, East Downtown... and on and on all have their own office markets, so what do you mean by put pressure on Downtown market and it will only build up?
Have you been to Houston?
Yeah you clearly have not been to Houston.
It doesn't need any more districts.
From Downtown south on Main you get to the medical center which has towers with as much sq feet as downtown Dallas.
From Downtown west on Memorial you get to Uptown which again is a big as Downtown Dallas.
Then in-between
Greenway Plaza
Upper Kirby
Montrose
Bellaire
and others that are escaping my memory are all business districts.
I think you have the wrong idea of Houston.
You should go visit before you make these comments.
I dunno if it is because of zoning or what, but apart from north of downtown, Dallas just doesn't have the regular arterial grid that Houston has where every main artery in every direction is a higher density Corridor like the developments Dallaz had been posting.
The way Houston is developed, every arterial road is fronted by the higher density complexes and retail and the Single family homes are behind the business or apartments.
There are a few areas where sfh front the arteries ( like in Afton Oaks), but Houston isn't generally built like Dallas with sfh right on major arterial roads that close to downtown.
I do admit having all those sfh with trees and greenery makes for a better looking drive. But Houston is building differently on these arteries with taller buildings closer to the street.
Houston's look like it has more energy because it is more built up with businesses/ restaurants while Dallas is more strictly residential.
To be honest Houston looks more suburban while Dallas looks exurban. Kinda like you went straight from downtown to the country in Dallas.
Very interesting point. I think you really hit on the nail with the comparison on how a typical street from either city looks.
This is probably why I get the impression that Houston has more of that lively, "city-like" busy vibe every time I visit there even though Dallas has overall slightly better downtown scene at a street level. With that being said, I have to admit that I enjoy Downtown Dallas better, but for some odd reason it just feels like the city turns into the boring suburbia faster than Houston does outside of its districts. It's kind of odd now that I think about it. And this is not to say Houston is significantly more urban than Dallas or anything. I think they're and have always been identical in terms of urbanity if not the same. Also, those arterial roads in the central parts of Houston are still very much on the suburban side compared to your traditional legacy cities outside Texas, but somehow they're able to create the urban vibe that I like.
IMO Dallas does a better job at preserving what they have and making improvements with it, like you'll see more older street-car-era homes than you could in Houston, and there are more sidewalks being built or widened all over the metro whereas in Houston, two-way streets with no sidewalks in either direction are not uncommon. Plus a lot of the nice bungalows are still being bulldozed for sterile-looking, characterless McMansions, which is a shame.
At least Houston has a better grid system in its core. In other words, it's got better "bones." Just like those arterial streets that give you an urban-scape, I know Houston has got a lot of potential.
The Dallas Market Center is the largest wholesale merchandise mart in the world. That's one aspect of Dallas' economy that a lot of people don't talk about. People drive past that complex a long Stemmons and the average person don't think much about it. The Dallas World Trade Center alone has 3.1 million sq ft of space. But at the same time, most of it is not open to the public. I think most people know of one aspect of it - The Dallas Market Hall. That's open to the public and they host Boat and RV shows every year it seems like lol.
Lake Cliff is an area too that’s getting slept on. The Dallas streetcar really has helped development there. There are new apartment buildings that sprang up a long it. The old El Fenix on Beckley Ave and Colorado Blvd is gone and replaced with new apts. I ate there as a kid growing up in Oak Cliff.
There's also another new apt building at the next intersection at Beckley Ave and Zang Blvd. You can see some of the original commercial buildings here too. Especially, that triangular building.
You can also see the other apartment building completed in the distance. Residential density is being built around the streetcar line! I love how they try to blend in with the historical commercial buildings across the street.
Thank you for all the incredible exhaustive posting of addresses. I was born in Oak Cliff. I also ate with my two sons at that very same El Fenix restaurant every time we visited my grandmother. People aren't aware of the potential for that area bounded by Jefferson, West Davis, Zang and Bishop to sprout into an Uptown.
What I like about that first Dart light rail line is how they ran it first south of downtown. They then bent it around the places in North Oak Cliff that didn't need it. Later they would serve that area with a trolley.
My grandmother would often walk us over a few blocks to the area that they are now calling downtown Elmwood. I watched the movie Mary Poppins in that theater now demolished at the Wynnwood shopping center.
If you are talking about Stemmons Freeway then pass what you puffing.
You do know that the office market in Houston runs past downtown in each direction right? Allen Parkway, Montrose, Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, Midtown, East Downtown... and on and on all have their own office markets, so what do you mean by put pressure on Downtown market and it will only build up?
Have you been to Houston?
Yeah you clearly have not been to Houston.
It doesn't need any more districts.
From Downtown south on Main you get to the medical center which has towers with as much sq feet as downtown Dallas.
From Downtown west on Memorial you get to Uptown which again is a big as Downtown Dallas.
Then in-between
Greenway Plaza
Upper Kirby
Montrose
Bellaire
and others that are escaping my memory are all business districts.
I think you have the wrong idea of Houston.
You should go visit before you make these comments.
I dunno if it is because of zoning or what, but apart from north of downtown, Dallas just doesn't have the regular arterial grid that Houston has where every main artery in every direction is a higher density Corridor like the developments Dallaz had been posting.
The way Houston is developed, every arterial road is fronted by the higher density complexes and retail and the Single family homes are behind the business or apartments.
There are a few areas where sfh front the arteries ( like in Afton Oaks), but Houston isn't generally built like Dallas with sfh right on major arterial roads that close to downtown.
I do admit having all those sfh with trees and greenery makes for a better looking drive. But Houston is building differently on these arteries with taller buildings closer to the street.
Houston's look like it has more energy because it is more built up with businesses/ restaurants while Dallas is more strictly residential.
To be honest Houston looks more suburban while Dallas looks exurban. Kinda like you went straight from downtown to the country in Dallas.
All that area they call the Stemmon's Corridor was freed up from the building of the levees along the Trinity River. They say that the real estate companies of Vantage, Trammell Crow, and Lincoln all originated out from the building of that area. Looking at a map, Houston has nothing like it. I don't know why they don't include that area in with Central Dallas. There are 5000 businesses and 170,000 people working within what they now designate its vicinity. My prediction is that, during the next twenty years, that area is going to explode all the way out to the LBJ freeway.
Thank you for all the incredible exhaustive posting of addresses. I was born in Oak Cliff. I also ate with my two sons at that very same El Fenix restaurant every time we visited my grandmother. People aren't aware of the potential for that area bounded by Jefferson, West Davis, Zang and Bishop to sprout into an Uptown.
What I like about that first Dart light rail line is how they ran it first south of downtown. They then bent it around the places in North Oak Cliff that didn't need it. Later they would serve that area with a trolley.
My grandmother would often walk us over a few blocks to the area that they are now calling downtown Elmwood. I watched the movie Mary Poppins in that theater now demolished at the Wynnwood shopping center.
Right! I've been trying to explain that in terms of the growth potential. 10+ years ago, one could be a little more skeptical about that. But it is clear what's gong on in these areas and how the city is making key infrastructure upgrades to support what's already happening. I forgot to mention, The city is planning to finish the complete streets redo on Jefferson Blvd and Davis St.
Jefferson Blvd from Adams to Polk St. The section from Beckley to Adams was done a few years ago.
Davis St from Cockrell Hill to Clinton Ave. The Davis Street portion past Clinton Ave was already done a few years ago.
For Example: At Davis St and Edgefield Ave (old streetcar node) - no new acorn lamp posts and newer wider sidewalks.
It's taking so long because of the pandemic pause. Everything is delayed, which is annoying for people like me who've been waiting for improvements for yearsssssssss now. Now, they're estimating the start of it in 2025.
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