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As far as the first argument (economics), the amount I pay for utilities is absurdly negligible; it has absolutely nothing to do with "controlling my own life".
As to the second argument (environment), I contribute to the environment by my sparing use of electricity. I dislike waste of any kind, and once you become used to inside temperatures across a wider range, you are quite comfortable with that range. Of course I use central heat and central air, but less than most people would.
As to the third argument (control). I am 67 and have lived on the grid all my life from earliest childhood, including some time in France and Germany, as well as several years in hurricane country (Louisiana) and many, many years in earthquake country (Los Angeles). The longest time I was ever without power was about two days, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana following a hurricane. Yes, I know, there have been longer outages for other people at other times and other places. I am just saying I don't find "control" a compelling argument. It's overwrought. We should be prepared to survive some outages without going bananas over it. I would never attempt to re-arrange my life for such a minor purpose.
Who said anyting about re-arranging one's life? The purpose of becoming more self-sufficient when it comes to providing for one's own power "off-grid" is so that one dosn't have to re-arrange one's life should their be any interruption in grid services.
While you say your price for utilities is negligible that may be for what you use. No matter how much you conserve you are still paying a significant proportion of that bill in taxes, fees, and maint. services to the utility. Why not pay yourself instead of a utility?
If you were 30 years younger and projected your expenses forward including inflation and averaging the annual percentage in electrical utility rate increases I think you might be surprised to see that after about 12 years your system would be paid for. How many thousands of dollars then would you be able to save and invest for your future and retirement instead of paying those taxes and fees to others?
You have lived the majority of your life during an age of relatively cheap electricity. As the government regulates coal powered power plants out of existence the days of inexpensive electricity will be over unless tthey take some measures to provide at least a portion of their own electrical generation (solar, residential fuel cell, small hydro, small wind, etc......).
Who said anyting about re-arranging one's life? The purpose of becoming more self-sufficient when it comes to providing for one's own power "off-grid" is so that one dosn't have to re-arrange one's life should their be any interruption in grid services.
While you say your price for utilities is negligible that may be for what you use. No matter how much you conserve you are still paying a significant proportion of that bill in taxes, fees, and maint. services to the utility. Why not pay yourself instead of a utility?
If you were 30 years younger and projected your expenses forward including inflation and averaging the annual percentage in electrical utility rate increases I think you might be surprised to see that after about 12 years your system would be paid for. How many thousands of dollars then would you be able to save and invest for your future and retirement instead of paying those taxes and fees to others?
You have lived the majority of your life during an age of relatively cheap electricity. As the government regulates coal powered power plants out of existence the days of inexpensive electricity will be over unless tthey take some measures to provide at least a portion of their own electrical generation (solar, residential fuel cell, small hydro, small wind, etc......).
Not so, except possibly in the final paragraph because utility costs may go up substantially in the future. None of can know the future with any exactitude.
As for the paragraph which I bolded, that is not correct. I was talking about the total amounts I am paying in my utility bills, not just the part for usage, but the entire amount of the bill including taxes, fees, and whatever else they care to call the add-ons. For a recent one-year period, my total bills (12 montly bills) were $130.10 for natural gas (averaging $10.84 per month) and $221.05 for electricity (averaging $18.42 per month). I don't get billed individually for water, as the townhouse association gets one bill for the 26 units; I would have to see what the yearly water cost is and divide by 26 to get my own yearly share and I've never gone to the trouble. My costs are indeed lower than what many people pay for these reasons:
1. I live in Los Angeles where we can use very little heat and very little airconditioning. Since it cools down at night here we can open the windows at night and cool down the dwelling, then close them in the morning.
2. Even on top of the above in #1, I am very frugal and sparing in my usage.
3. I am divorced and live alone. If more people lived here, there would be more usage and higher bills.
4. I do not own a washer and dryer, so the laudromat carries some of my usage and pays for it with the quarters I put in the machines.
5. I do very little cooking. Some, but very little.
General note: In the past in another forum I was accused, based on the ultility bills I cited, of living in a tiny little place with no comfort. Again, not so. I live in a two-bedroom plus loft, two and a half bathroom townhouse with a two-car garage and a combined living room/dining room and a smallish but complete kitchen. Hardly a McMansion but plenty large and comfortable enough for one person plus the occasional overnight guest.
Fair enough Escort Rider, I'll cede to you that given your current lifestyle and current energy use and basing it on that alone that you probably would not have seen a return in producing all of your own energy. Frankly, it wouldn't work for most who live in multi-unit complexes in highly urban areas. I really don't think that a scenario such as your own was the intent of the thread topic though.
As far as the first argument (economics), the amount I pay for utilities is absurdly negligible; it has absolutely nothing to do with "controlling my own life".
As to the second argument (environment), I contribute to the environment by my sparing use of electricity. I dislike waste of any kind, and once you become used to inside temperatures across a wider range, you are quite comfortable with that range. Of course I use central heat and central air, but less than most people would.
As to the third argument (control). I am 67 and have lived on the grid all my life from earliest childhood, including some time in France and Germany, as well as several years in hurricane country (Louisiana) and many, many years in earthquake country (Los Angeles). The longest time I was ever without power was about two days, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana following a hurricane. Yes, I know, there have been longer outages for other people at other times and other places. I am just saying I don't find "control" a compelling argument. It's overwrought. We should be prepared to survive some outages without going bananas over it. I would never attempt to re-arrange my life for such a minor purpose.
Economics: IF your numbers are accurate understand you are an anomolie. I do not use much energy/appliances, effective light bulbs etc and my utilities are ~$100 monthly (I actually live in a SMALLER place than you.)
Others I know have over $300+++ monthly utility bills.
This can make quite the difference.
Besides, As I said, it's prepaying and KNOWING vs one more unknown variable.
Second:
Annnnnnd not everyone lives in such a moderate climate as you.
Third: Your missing the point. It;s NOT "Rearranging your life" FOR a minor purpose. It's doing this minor thing SO AS TO NOT have to rearrange your life.
Again 'What you have experienced' is as statistically insignificant as the fact I have been without power for over 2 weeks due to ice storms, and much longer due to Hurricanes. (I've been many places)
OR the Fact that as an Emergency manager I know that the electronic grid is a VERY delicate, very outdated piece of 'held together with bailing-wire tec' and WILL be failing significantly in my lifetime.
As to not going bananas over inconveniences... I got LESS than one shower per month when I was in Iraq. I can endure much.
See no reason why I should when I don't have to.
Fact is: You asked. I answered. If YOU do not believe those reasons are any YOU would choose.
The people I know that live off grid are very self sufficient in many ways...
They are able to understand how things interconnect, know at least the basic relationship between power generation vs. consumption.
Some are 100% off grid and others still have a meter, but several have not paid for a Kilowatt in years.
The range can include a very modern home and lifestyle or can be very primitive... one friend that lives in Alaska is off grid... he has solar and battery just for his SAT Internet connection.
You need to ask if you are the type of person that will and can do basic trouble shooting...
My nearest off-grid friend has panels ideally situated on his roof... he lives in a very wooded area so the extra height provide unobstructed light access... it also means that he has to periodically get up there and wash the panels from tree needles and leaves... just like washing an outside window only on an incline.
People really into the lifestyle combine many avenues... they may have small hydro or augment a small solar system with a small generator for a few hours on wash day...
Start by calculating the energy you now use and then see where you can save a watt...
The guy that hasn't pd PGE for a Watt in years is now putting in a electric water heater element and on the list for a Nissan Leaf... he is trying to eliminate/reduce his propane and gasoline bills.
Thank you. I guess what i was asking is how possible is it to find land that is off the electric grid but with water / sewage whether it's on or off the grid?
It's obvious that i need to so a lot more research.
I'm a woman and alone (boo-hoo 'cept for my dog) so it seems like a big undertaking.
So i thought a good compromise would be to get off of the electric grid but have county water.
I'll do some more research and then be equipped with some more intelligent questions.
Not normally -- in most circumstances, electric is wired in before community water and sewer. It's not uncommon to find rural parcels with grid electrics but their own well and septic; but I don't think I've ever seen a place anywhere in the country that had community water and sewer but not grid power (unless the owner specifically refused to hook up). You could always refuse to have them turn the grid power on to your place even if it was hooked up though.
However, you can choose to use however much or little grid power you want with a few wiring changes to your house. Many folks have grid-tied renewable energy systems that allow them to use solar/wind/generator with and without battery backup while being connected to the grid, even if they don't draw any power from the grid at all and some utility companies will pay you for or "bank" your generated power that you feed back into the grid. Grid tied systems can be slightly more complicated and expensive than standalone systems because you need to condition your power to feed back into the grid, and may need some fancier switches to optimize self-generation use vs. pulling from the grid.
If you want to no use the grid power at all, and it's legal to do so in your location, you can have an electrician come and pull the grid main line from your electric service panel and wire in the RE or generator input instead. Although self-generation can be more expensive upfront and in the long run (depending on the tech/fuel and usage) than using grid power or being grid-tied.
When people speak of "off-grid", why do so many automatically assume "solar"????
We have chosen to intentionally live off-grid when we retire. There is no one "best" method for doing this, but rather, a combination of small 'systems' that operate independently and end up providing the user with a liveable 'whole'.
Example: a 12VDC system. This can be used for lights, fans, sound system, ham and CB mobile radios, even a small refrigerator. It works especially well with LEDs for ambient room lighting, as well as hall and stairway lighting. And rather than put up big $$$ for an immense solar array to do "the whole thing", the use of several smaller, inexpensive panels, each dedicated to its own appliance, would be easier to afford over time than one big lump sum. I like the idea of exterior security lights tied to their own dedicated small solar panels.
The use of a generator, IMHO, is crucial. Not for everything, but certainly in an emergency, you should have one available. I also like the idea of an 8-battery bank (although 4 can also be used) of deep-cycle marine-type batteries, used with an inverter to produce AC power to run a washer, hair dryer, kitchen mixer, and even bright AC lights when required. The bank can be charged up in a jiffy using the generator each morning for a half-hour to an hour. While good generators are not cheap, they certainly cost less than an extensive array of solar panels.
As you can see, there are many ways to solve the same problem, and for different costs. Even the mega-buck full solar array is going to need the battery bank replaced at some point, and panel failure is not unknown. Generator failure is also common. And everything needs maintenance.
So why go off-grid, as someone has asked? Part of the reason is that the national grid is aging, and has not been upgraded. Urban areas have grids that are 100+ years old. The newer sections are often not as well built as the older. When they go down, they go down for longer and longer, it seems. Then there is the issue of the 'smart grid' which I won't get into here, but if you look it up, you'll see how UGLY that situation could be! In our case, it comes down to control. We want to be the ones who decide how much power we use, what type of power we use, and how many bills we have to pay every month!
When people speak of "off-grid", why do so many automatically assume "solar"????
In my case it is because the only people I personally know living off the power grid have solar panels... with one exception... he has a water wheel that drives a generator with enough output to heat his home and hot water...
In some areas, like where I live, installing a solar array is allowed... heating your home with wood isn't... wind is also problematic...
Where my husband and I are planning to live when we retire is what influenced our choice to go off-grid at that time.We plan on a rural location rather than urban, and a fairly large tract of land. The cost to run power from the nearest utility pole to your home can be quite high unless one wishes to put their home as close to the street/highway as possible. Another consideration is that in rural areas, when power does go out due to storm damage or whatever, it generally is not restored quickly as rural areas have a much lower priority than denser population areas.
In addition, since the cost to run utilities to our planned home will be high, we may as well generate our own power and store it rather than tie into utilities. And lastly, as we age, we will have the comfort of knowing our utility bills won't be a thing we have to worry about should our financial situation change. Too many seniors end up making hard choices between eating, paying for utilities, or paying for medications. Having a home that is fully paid for, with reliable power that will also be fully paid for (with the possible exception of the occasional repairs and replacements as needed), will go a long way towards making our retirement comfortable and secure.
The grid has its purpose, and it works for most everyone. And modern medicine wouldn't be the big business it is today if hospitals had to run on self-generated power all the time. But for us, the place we choose to live to lower our economic burdens as we age is what drives our choice to live off-grid. If we were planning to live in a city, I'm sure that choice would be much different.
In my case it is because the only people I personally know living off the power grid have solar panels... with one exception... he has a water wheel that drives a generator with enough output to heat his home and hot water...
In some areas, like where I live, installing a solar array is allowed... heating your home with wood isn't... wind is also problematic...
There are actually states/municipalities that have outlawed wood stoves or wood furnaces for home heat, even the new highly efficient ones? May I ask where? I know that San Fran has a ban on outdoor burning/grilling with wood but I wasn't aware of bans for home heating anywhere.
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'cept for my dog) so it seems like a big undertaking.
