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So, how much is age discrimination is there? From your perspective, is it a few startups here and there or is it widespread and significantly impacts older engineers?
Generally, older employees are seen as less flexible and usually like to have things "their way". Obviously, just a generalization.
Right or wrong, that is often the case. It's something to think about when we have dealings with younger ones. A teenager or young adult today is potentially a hiring manager that we may face if we find ourselves looking for new work later in our careers. Was he treated with respect and dignity by older people when he was younger and less experienced? Or was he treated as someone lesser and made to feel like his feelings and opinions didn't matter? If the latter is the case, is he justified in viewing his elder generation as inflexible, stodgy or outright bitter?
Probably not, but it's human tendency to do so. Of course we can't control how someone was treated by others, but the way I see it, we have two choices as we grow older: 1) Be satisfied with what we've accomplished and happy with ourselves as a person and become one of those sweet old men that people can look up to with admiration, or 2) Become ever more cynical, uncompromising, and uptight, eventually turning into a grumpy old grouch that people either despise or feel sorry for.
If we do the first one, things will probably work out OK for us in the grand scheme of things.
I don't mean to sound preachy. It's just something that I've been thinking about a lot as I pass all too quickly through middle age and grapple with my own imperfect tendencies.
I've been thinking about this topic for the past few days, and something occurred to me.
In my experience with interviewing, older candidates are more likely to show up dressed in a more traditional outfit for an interview (suit, shirt and tie, etc). Depending on the workplace culture, this can give the impression that they would not be a good fit for the corporate culture, that they may be inflexible, etc.
Mileage will vary depending on the job, the company, and the industry, of course.
Well articulated. I have worked with both 1 & 2 and left jobs because of 2's in the workplace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterprods
Right or wrong, that is often the case. It's something to think about when we have dealings with younger ones. A teenager or young adult today is potentially a hiring manager that we may face if we find ourselves looking for new work later in our careers. Was he treated with respect and dignity by older people when he was younger and less experienced? Or was he treated as someone lesser and made to feel like his feelings and opinions didn't matter? If the latter is the case, is he justified in viewing his elder generation as inflexible, stodgy or outright bitter?
Probably not, but it's human tendency to do so. Of course we can't control how someone was treated by others, but the way I see it, we have two choices as we grow older: 1) Be satisfied with what we've accomplished and happy with ourselves as a person and become one of those sweet old men that people can look up to with admiration, or 2) Become ever more cynical, uncompromising, and uptight, eventually turning into a grumpy old grouch that people either despise or feel sorry for.
If we do the first one, things will probably work out OK for us in the grand scheme of things.
I don't mean to sound preachy. It's just something that I've been thinking about a lot as I pass all too quickly through middle age and grapple with my own imperfect tendencies.
I've been thinking about this topic for the past few days, and something occurred to me.
In my experience with interviewing, older candidates are more likely to show up dressed in a more traditional outfit for an interview (suit, shirt and tie, etc). Depending on the workplace culture, this can give the impression that they would not be a good fit for the corporate culture, that they may be inflexible, etc.
Mileage will vary depending on the job, the company, and the industry, of course.
This is so right on the money. I think there's a cultural difference with the generation gap, when it comes to how we present ourselves to people in authority.
For instance, I interviewed for a county job in Santa Cruz a few years ago (early 50's). I was way qualified, and tested in the top 10 on the exam.
I showed up in slacks and blazer, and sat on the edge of my chair while being interviewed by a young woman my daughter's age. She kept telling me to make myself comfortable. It was so awkward. It was like she wanted me to take my shoes off and curl up on the chair. I mean, I really think that's what she wanted.
I was trained to sit up straight and be respectful. I was pleasant and smiley, and friendly and chatty, and would have been an outstanding employee (in the elections and records department - I have lots of office experience).
But when I left, I knew I wouldn't get the job. Even though I'm basically an old hippy, though I clean up well , I wasn't relaxed enough for her.
I kept taking exams at the county, kept scoring in the top 10, which guarantees interviews, and never got a job. Whereas in my younger days, they would have snatched me up. I rarely interviewed for a job I didn't get when I was in my 30's, and even into my 40's. But, not in my 50's.
This is so right on the money. I think there's a cultural difference with the generation gap, when it comes to how we present ourselves to people in authority.
For instance, I interviewed for a county job in Santa Cruz a few years ago (early 50's). I was way qualified, and tested in the top 10 on the exam.
I showed up in slacks and blazer, and sat on the edge of my chair while being interviewed by a young woman my daughter's age. She kept telling me to make myself comfortable. It was so awkward. It was like she wanted me to take my shoes off and curl up on the chair. I mean, I really think that's what she wanted.
I was trained to sit up straight and be respectful. I was pleasant and smiley, and friendly and chatty, and would have been an outstanding employee (in the elections and records department - I have lots of office experience).
But when I left, I knew I wouldn't get the job. Even though I'm basically an old hippy, though I clean up well , I wasn't relaxed enough for her.
...
I highlighted the above because I interview folks in my current role, though a little further south in the Monterey area. In my experience learning about the corporate culture ahead of time is an important part of the interview process. In my years as an software engineer I've worked with everything from startups where flip flops and shorts are the 'norm' to more formal settings where a tie and dress shirt are appreciated, especially during the interview. I've had candidates come out and ask me what is appropriate attire for our environment. I think that's a perfectly valid question to ask the hiring folks. If a person is over or under dressed for the interview it can be awkward for them. And if they are older probably more so if they are perceived to fit a certain stereotype.
Although I don't intentionally try to discriminate I can't help but notice obvious differences between the 20-30 something and the 50+ candidate. In general terms the younger person at least 'appears' to be more willing to be flexible if things don't go quite his/her way. For a more junior or mid level role I think that can be a plus. For a more senior level role it can go either way as someone older with strong experience and well founded ideas can really benefit an organization. So I would be lying to say I never consider age. But it is just one of many factors when considering the overall person as a good fit or not.
I also echo otterprods in the two ways one can age in the their careers and lives. While some are eager to learn and grow their entire careers and encourage others to do the same there are also those who can become quite jaded, grumpy, resistant to change and unpleasant to work with. Granted that is hard to pick up on during a short interview where folks are already nervous. So even if an older, more seasoned professional isn't like the latter they may still be perceived to be by the hiring staff.
Lastly since I'm pushing the upper end of this age spectrum I try to be honest with myself and notice things like the majority of a staff being 20 somethings. That can be a corporate culture similar to the waiters/waitresses at Islands Restaurants for example. There is a certain image that company is trying to portrait - young, cool, progressive, bleeding edge, blah, blah. If that's the case why waste my time and theirs?
BTW, I relate to your old hippie comment and I have the photos to prove it!
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 07-29-2013 at 08:39 PM..
This is so right on the money. I think there's a cultural difference with the generation gap, when it comes to how we present ourselves to people in authority.
For instance, I interviewed for a county job in Santa Cruz a few years ago (early 50's). I was way qualified, and tested in the top 10 on the exam.
I showed up in slacks and blazer, and sat on the edge of my chair while being interviewed by a young woman my daughter's age. She kept telling me to make myself comfortable. It was so awkward. It was like she wanted me to take my shoes off and curl up on the chair. I mean, I really think that's what she wanted.
I was trained to sit up straight and be respectful. I was pleasant and smiley, and friendly and chatty, and would have been an outstanding employee (in the elections and records department - I have lots of office experience).
But when I left, I knew I wouldn't get the job. Even though I'm basically an old hippy, though I clean up well , I wasn't relaxed enough for her.
I kept taking exams at the county, kept scoring in the top 10, which guarantees interviews, and never got a job. Whereas in my younger days, they would have snatched me up. I rarely interviewed for a job I didn't get when I was in my 30's, and even into my 40's. But, not in my 50's.
In an age of over-litigiousness, I'm sure no one wants to read a suggestion of a lawsuit and yet that's exactly what came to my mind when I read this. Have you actually repetitively scored high on their exams, repetitively interviewed and repetitively not gotten the job?
If so, it seems to me that this could be genuine age discrimination.
This seems especially odious if Santa Cruz County- the government agency, right?- is discriminating against you whether for your age or for anything. I call it "odious" because Santa Cruz' culture and politics put on such a pretense of being progressive and yet, this seems like just more discrimination.
In an age of over-litigiousness, I'm sure no one wants to read a suggestion of a lawsuit and yet that's exactly what came to my mind when I read this. Have you actually repetitively scored high on their exams, repetitively interviewed and repetitively not gotten the job?
If so, it seems to me that this could be genuine age discrimination.
This seems especially odious if Santa Cruz County- the government agency, right?- is discriminating against you whether for your age or for anything. I call it "odious" because Santa Cruz' culture and politics put on such a pretense of being progressive and yet, this seems like just more discrimination.
After all, isn't discrimination anti-progressive?
I agree 1 million percent. Just don't have the energy to pursue it. But, yes, it was at least a half dozen jobs where I scored in the top 10, and didn't get the job. And for no good reason. Other than my age.
I have since decided to just retire, but yes, it was amazingly frustrating.
There's nothing worse than managing a person twice your age who got passed over for promotion. "Experience" at the executive level can be synonymous with mastery at political stalling (more bluntly put: hypocrisy). I realize the OP is probably thinking no- or mid-level management application, but the enthusiasm and lack of bitterness of the youth (<40) is something to treasure at all levels of an organization.
And having realized what it takes to survive beyond 50 in a corporate environment, I've already understood that if one's not financially independent for life at 50, one's as good as screwed - financially, or morally.
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, I wasn't relaxed enough for her.
If that's the case why waste my time and theirs? 
