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I lost my faith when my grandmother died, when I was 12 years old. I got it back when I became a "Born-Again Christian" in 2004. I used to drink, party a lot, and hangout with the "drunks" and got divorced, because he didn't like to "party". It was bad. But the "party" got boring for me, so I changed for the better and got my faith back.
Jacob, I just wanted to throw something out regarding the first of your questions or reasons for doubting the existence of God, which is a dandy. But when you look hard at that question, it may end up being a better arguement in favor of the existence of God than one going the other way.
Now, if you don't buy the Creation Theory, then chances are good you favor the Darwinian model, you know, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. Let's say you roll that way. The question is, where does the concept of evil fit in there? In other words, how does the notion of evil or wrong benefit a creature or being in the struggle to survive? Answer; it doesn't. The struggle for mere survival has no room for a concept of rules. You do what you have to and that comes from sheer instinct. If humankind has simply perpetuated that same basic struggle, even to a more advanced or complex degree, that still does not account for the idea that one action is bad and another good. Doesn't it strike you that the whole idea of right vs. wrong has to come from something or somewhere outside whatever mechanism simply reacts to whatever currently threatens it's survival? If, in fact, survival of the fittest is the only reason the human race exists at all, where do we even get attributes like compassion, empathy, or a desire for justice? Not only are those not essential to our very survival, but they would seem to suggest a kind of weakness that could be fatal to any being or species that would embody them.
SamAntone writes, "If anyone can scientifically prove the above, I'll give him/her 1,000 dollars." I think your money is safe, Sam, since "science" does not possess any instrument nor the technology to verify or disprove the existence of anything outside it's own set boundaries. Like they say, you can't weigh a chicken with a yardstick. There are literally hundreds of sciences that deal with a vast number of areas from insects to dust, but none that specifically deals with the existence/non-existence of a supreme being. The very question of whether there is or is not a God is a philosophical one and lies outside of science. If you doubt that, you may want to do some studying on what exactly is science, and more importantly, what it's not.
Since the question was "how I lost my faith", I am going to reply, specific to my own situation. I was never raised as any religion, but was raised to understand good values and know right from wrong. I was turned off to organized religion as a young teenager when I witnessed parents disowning their own kids b/o they hung out with, dated, and/or married "out of their religion and/or ethnic". This type of behavior was common where I grew up, not just occasional. In my later teens, I was curious to check out being part of a church. Since I already knew I didn't "like" the Catholic or Jewish "rules" and doctrines (as most people I knew were of those religions), I tried a Unitarian church. It was pretty lay back, and no "rules" and prejudices or talk of sin was rammed down your throat. The only reason I stopped going after 6 or so months, was that I worked a full time job, went to school at night, did volunteer work for charities, and also had a social life, so when Sunday morning came around, I just needed to sleep in!! That is the ONLY reason I stopped going. At that time, I was not "against" god, maybe I was neutral, as I didn't "question" his existence back then. Some years later, my mother, who was the best person anyone could meet - caring, kind, loving, honest, sincere, warm, had many friends, helped those less fortunate, etc. etc. - was a the wrong place at the wrong time. She was mercilessly killed in an auto accident while on her way to doing charity work. It was a bright sunny day, with no weather or road issues. Someone missed the stop sign, and my mother layed in intensive care for 4 weeks, until she finally left us. How many times I was told that, although it's sad, it was "god's will" and "her time to leave us". How dare ANYONE (including god) judge my mother's life!! She was HELPING people, NOT hurting or harming people! She had everything to live for. So while she was taken, some child molestor or murdurer (by the hundreds) were spared and "saved"! Following my mother's passing, came the passing of a close friend who who had 3 young children and was asked to work some overtime at a retail store on Labor Day Weekend. He did so, and again, was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and was killed. Long story....Anyway, it has been since that time, and then seeing all that followed (just what is going on around us in the world - the killings - the hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, etc. etc). that are NOT stopped by this so-called 'surpeme loving being". I know I will get flack for this, and probably will be quoted bible scriptures, but it's not going to work with me. Anyway, the point is that at one time, I had the possibility of becoming (sort of) a believer, but it drastically changed, after the incidents that were "allowed" to happen. Again, I am just giving MY opinion and I am NOT placing MY views on others here, just answering the original question. Thanks for listening.
Jacob, I just wanted to throw something out regarding the first of your questions or reasons for doubting the existence of God, which is a dandy. But when you look hard at that question, it may end up being a better arguement in favor of the existence of God than one going the other way.
Now, if you don't buy the Creation Theory, then chances are good you favor the Darwinian model, you know, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. Let's say you roll that way. The question is, where does the concept of evil fit in there? In other words, how does the notion of evil or wrong benefit a creature or being in the struggle to survive? Answer; it doesn't. The struggle for mere survival has no room for a concept of rules. You do what you have to and that comes from sheer instinct. If humankind has simply perpetuated that same basic struggle, even to a more advanced or complex degree, that still does not account for the idea that one action is bad and another good. Doesn't it strike you that the whole idea of right vs. wrong has to come from something or somewhere outside whatever mechanism simply reacts to whatever currently threatens it's survival? If, in fact, survival of the fittest is the only reason the human race exists at all, where do we even get attributes like compassion, empathy, or a desire for justice? Not only are those not essential to our very survival, but they would seem to suggest a kind of weakness that could be fatal to any being or species that would embody them.
Chew on that a little.
JS
Josha, I want you to think about something for a second. I want you to think of a time, maybe you were a little kid, maybe an adult, maybe a teenager, when you hurt someone's feelings. In fact, did you ever call someone a name and feel bad about it? Did you ever make someone cry and feel bad about it? What made you feel that way? Is it safe to say, that you knew calling someone a name was wrong? Is it safe to say that by embarassing or hurting this person you knew it was wrong? I think we all KNOW it is wrong, and it's usually our parents that told us the difference between right and wrong.
But, let's put it another way. Did you ever break up with a girlfriend in high school who started crying? Did you feel guilty because of it? Maybe it was her fault, but she was the one crying and it was time to end it. Didn't you still feel the least bit guilty over it? There is no commandment saying "Thou shall not break up with high school sweetheart." In fact, nothing close. So what made you feel guilty? What kind of made your heart sink knowing you were doing this to someone?
Obviously our parents instilled in us morals to not hurt another person, but clearly they drew the line explaining that people are going to break up. I mean, it happens every day. Sometimes for better reasons than other. But, why do you feel so guilty about it? I think there's something slightly more to it than what just our parents told us or what an imaginary being gave us. Think hard about what it is that really made you feel guilty and that is where our morals came from. Personally, I believe it was you seeing her reaction. And the kid's on the playground. And maybe the person you insulted. You saw their tears, their embarassment, their reddening face. You understood the fact that this person was hurt and you made a dual realization that you would not like this to happen to you! So, is that a fair assumption to make? YOU do not want to be treated the way you have treated others or the way you have seen other people treated.
So, why wouldn't we want murder to happen? Even primitive man? Why would he care? Well, let's look at it from a survival aspect. What if you depended on a group of 5-7 people EVERY day for your own survival. Alone, you might make it for a little while, but as a family you could do A LOT better. Well, what would happen if an outsider came and killed half of your family? It would completely RUIN your chances of survival. It's a lot harder to hunt giant creatures with 3 people than 6. So, what did man understand from this? Well, he understood that in order to survive he didn't need his family killed. So, they reacted to the killers themselves.
Hammurabi's code is the first known set of written laws that we have found. So, what governed it? Did God come and strike Hammurabi down with some stone tablets and say "Eye for an eye, Ham, or else"? I doubt it. So why did Hammurabi see the need to write a code? Why be so brutal? An eye for an eye? A limb for a limb? It's not that they lacked morals and the brutality was an end result. In fact, this shows that man indeed HAD morals. But, if you look at Hammurabi's code, he writes them because all the laws are based around the fellow person's own well-being and survival. Today, would we care if we had to give up our own goats? Well, most of us wouldn't, but ask a farmer who relies on goats for his well-being.
We as humans UNDERSTAND the concept of hurting others. We understand the fact that when we hurt others it bothers them and we do not want the same to happen to us. THAT is why we have a need for morals as humans. They aren't God-given. We know what we don't like. We know what we don't want to happen to us. After all, would you want someone to murder you? Find a person who wants someone to murder them. You can't! It defies any logic of survival. Why do you not step closer to the edge of that cliff? Is it because it is wrong? No. Is it because God told you not to? NOPE! In fact, the only reason you do not step closer to the edge of that cliff is for your own survival!
I don't see why so many Christians see the need for a God to have morals. In fact, why do the religious see the need? It makes me wonder sometimes. Not about atheists. We clearly have morals. In fact, I can't remember a time when an atheist blew himself up or knocked on my door on a Sunday....
But, what about the people who are religious? What keeps them from committing crimes? If God is the only thing, than I fear for humanity because I thought the human race was better than that!
Finally, I'd like to say that when you step outside your house and look at your car, and then you drive out into the street and look at all the others cars, and then you get to the airport and you talk to the ticket agent at her computer, and then you go to your terminal and step inside your airplane and then you take off and arrive at your destination, you see everything that has happened in the mind of man. You see all of his inventions. All of his creativity. You see these things first hand every day. Is it THAT hard to believe with brains as powerful as they are, that we couldn't deduce the fact that we hurt someone and did not want that to happen to our own selves? Or perhaps we saw someone get hurt, and we did not want that to happen? Is it that EASY to believe we are so stupid, especially given the world around us today? I THINK NOT!
Now, if you don't buy the Creation Theory, then chances are good you favor the Darwinian model, you know, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.
Evolution is a theory. Creationism is not. It isn't even a hypothesis.
Quote:
If, in fact, survival of the fittest is the only reason the human race exists at all, where do we even get attributes like compassion, empathy, or a desire for justice? Not only are those not essential to our very survival, but they would seem to suggest a kind of weakness that could be fatal to any being or species that would embody them.
Incorrect. The traits you list are common among social species, of which humans are. Cooperation is essential to the survival of social species. Indeed, cooperation is essential between certain species. Ask a grouper why it doesn't make a meal out of wrasse.
SamAntone writes, "If anyone can scientifically prove the above, I'll give him/her 1,000 dollars." I think your money is safe, Sam, since "science" does not possess any instrument nor the technology to verify or disprove the existence of anything outside it's own set boundaries. Like they say, you can't weigh a chicken with a yardstick. There are literally hundreds of sciences that deal with a vast number of areas from insects to dust, but none that specifically deals with the existence/non-existence of a supreme being. The very question of whether there is or is not a God is a philosophical one and lies outside of science. If you doubt that, you may want to do some studying on what exactly is science, and more importantly, what it's not.
I'm not sure, from your response, if you understood my reason for mentioning that. Yes, I know that the question of God's existence is philosophical. This is why I was so generous with my invitation. My point was, why be so sure there is no God, when it cannot be proven?
If, in fact, survival of the fittest is the only reason the human race exists at all, where do we even get attributes like compassion, empathy, or a desire for justice? Not only are those not essential to our very survival, but they would seem to suggest a kind of weakness that could be fatal to any being or species that would embody them.
Because attributes like compassion, empathy, or a desire for justice are obviously beneficial to the species. I would ask, if God created the world, how are things like sadness, murder, or anger beneficial to the species? Anyways, I apologize for my absence, I thought this thread was inactive.
I'm not sure, from your response, if you understood my reason for mentioning that. Yes, I know that the question of God's existence is philosophical. This is why I was so generous with my invitation. My point was, why be so sure there is no God, when it cannot be proven?
Sam, I apologize for missing the point of your post. Guess I read it over too quickly. And I agree with you. God's existence cannot be proven nor disproven by conventional scientific methods any more than, say, the existence of aliens or unicorns. Science deals with the natural, physical world and they're very good at it (most of the time). As for matters outside that realm, they are no more qualified than the rest of us.
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