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The Hebrew word for globe is tebel, and it is used 36 times in the OT. Not once is tebel translated to English properly as 'globe' because of the ignorance of the [late in time] English translators' bias for evolution. But the translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls to English, Florentino Garcia Martinez properly translated tebel as globe six times: 6 results for 'globe'
On page 270, above, the context is the testimony of Levi, in the DSS Genesis Apocryphon, who wrote his story while in Egypt, prospering under Joseph's reign over Egypt, there. That was a few hundred years before the Exodus.
A search on the Hebrew word tebel in the DSS collection shows that the understanding of the ancients was that the "world" is a globe/tebel..
Going back to the Book of Jasher, which was a compilation of the biographies of the ancient patriarchs written by Moses [and a longer biography of Moses' life] which were all redacted for the Torah record, there is the record of Noah's prayer in the Ark, in Jasher 6: 30,31 http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/6.htm
Quote:
And all the living creatures that were in the ark were terrified, and the lions roared, and the oxen lowed, and the wolves howled, and every living creature in the ark spoke and lamented in its own language, so that their voices reached to a great distance, and Noah and his sons cried and wept in their troubles; they were greatly afraid that they had reached the gates of death.
And Noah prayed unto the Lord, and cried unto him on account of this, and he said, O Lord help us, for we have no strength to bear this evil that has encompassed us, for the waves of the waters have surrounded us, mischievous torrents have terrified us, the snares of death have come before us; answer us, O Lord, answer us, light up thy countenance toward us and be gracious to us, redeem us and deliver us.
And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Noah, and the Lord remembered him.
And a wind passed over the earth, and the waters were still and the ark rested.
And the fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.
And the interesting thing is that when David, the anointed prophetic Psalmist of Israel, wrote Psalm 18, he compiled that Psalm as a brief, first person report of the history of the people of God, from their beginning to the end. David first sang that song as reported in 2 Samuel 22, and in vs it is recorded that the earth shook and the foundations of heaven trembled, and in vs 16, and the tebel/globe moved
Those who let others do their thinking for them are "thoughtless".
Wow! All those blue link words! This is the functional definition of a cut and paste post, eh?
You know, just once, I'd love to run into a Christian who is capable of independant thought, based mostly on their own conclusions, their own thoughtful interpretations, after they had examine all the evidence on both sides of an issue.
You know; where, first, they've read and studied the bible. Then, second, they've read and studied, say, a University-level intro biology text, and participated in the weekly labs that attend such a course. Then, perhaps they'd go on to read the thinking of a few scholars, both for and against Christian dogma, or biological dogma (Well, really now, is there such a thing? Dogma is usually quite stable and long-lived, and yet the state of the art in biosciences changes weekly. How, exactly, could one be dogmatic?)
Then, they'd go out and overlay all this scholarly knowledge against their own interpretation of the world around them, to see how the various ideas and concepts "jive" with the reality around them, and eventually, in their maturity and experience, they'd come to some rational conclusions.
Of course, then they'd be able to then carry on a conversation about the topics withoutfalling back on endless blather-pasting of yet another ambiguous biblicalquote which, obviously, doesn't "prove" anything. And where every other word is a link... Certainly the post's author in such a case didn't do all that irrelevant linking, now did they? So, ergo, it's obviouslysomeone else's thinking. Typical, sadly.
If that were how it worked, as in: the book states it, so therefore it's true, then why not accord the same respect and logic to a modern biology text, what with it's proven facts nicely laid out, with good color graphics as well?
[quote=rifleman;10751950]Wow! All those blue link words! This is the functional definition of a cut and paste post, eh?
You know, just once, I'd love to run into a Christian who is capable of independant thought, based mostly on their own conclusions, their own thoughtful interpretations, after they had examine all the evidence on both sides of an issue.
You know; where, first, they've read and studied the bible. Then, second, they've read and studied, say, a University-level intro biology text, and participated in the weekly labs that attend such a course. Then, perhaps they'd go on to read the thinking of a few scholars, both for and against Christian dogma, or biological dogma (Well, really now, is there such a thing? Dogma is usually quite stable and long-lived, and yet the state of the art in biosciences changes weekly. How, exactly, could one be dogmatic?)
Then, they'd go out and overlay all this scholarly knowledge against their own interpretation of the world around them, to see how the various ideas and concepts "jive" with the reality around them, and eventually, in their maturity and experience, they'd come to some rational conclusions.
.../quote]
Well, go get your own following for your own false cult and make them do it your way
But since you are not God, and are just a fallen human being then you can have no controlling power over we who have heard the Gospel and believed it, and obeyed it and repented of our sins; and by that have been adopted into His family.
After that adoption -and only after- we began to read the Manufacturer's handbook, and we took it in as babies taking our milk; and then we began to grow up to the meat, and we learned and learn of Him and His marvelous works to the children of men daily; never coming to an end of learning new wonders from His Word and creation, by His giving us understanding; which understanding He hides from those professing wisdom of this world, but who refuse true wisdom and instruction, and prove themselves to be fools, in the end.
And I have the book written by Martinez and it was easier to do the search from on the site, where I bought it last year, than by hand typing all the mentions of the tebel/world/globe in it. I have read the book, obviously, and others like it, and many other books written by many other people, both ancient and modern books, written by believers and by non-believers, in my years as a Bible Believing Christian.
If God's Word was so clear about this fact why did the church persecute people who thought the world was round and that it rotated around the sun?
This is not about a bunch of men who did not believe the Bible they had, and who banned the book which Jesus called "Scripture" and also called "The Wisdom of God", in the 4th century, but which banning was at the beginning of the last dark age of technology and science, which man is coming out of in these last centuries.
Columbus did not discover the western continents, they were written of by the ancients, and they were traded with and ruled by nations across the seas, in ancient times.
Cocaine and tobacco were traded with Egypt and have been found in mummies in Egyptian tombs.
Grain from Egypt was traded by the great sea merchants of Tyrus, across the seas, to the western continents.
There are records from ruins in SA that tell of Egypt ruling the former SA empires. Those records are spoken of in Saga America by Barry Fell. There are great sea causeways for great merchant ships to use in former times which are now lying underwater in SA, and are remnants of ancient civilizations' sea trade ports; and pictures of those are in Berlitz Mysteries of Forgotten worlds.
Nebuchadnezzar ruled all kings on earth in the 6th century BC. God [YHWH] said so, in Daniel 2, when Nebuchadnezzar was given a parabolic dream of the kingdoms of the world from his own time to the end of this present age, when the Messiah cuts down all kingdoms and all authorities and sets up His Messianic kingdom for the Millennium. Nebuchadnezzar was said to rule wherever men, beasts or fowl dwelt on earth. The western continents were settled and Nebuchadnezzar ruled the kings, who ruled the kings, who ruled the kings... of the nations in the east, north south and west of the globe, which kings included the Olmec king and all western continents kings Isa 23:3And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations
(BTW, this thread seems to be an attempt to not be tarred with a brush of general scientific, geological and astrophysical illiteracy, and yet, isn't this the ame author of the "mirrored sun" hypothesis? Since we absolutely know the Earth's round [some acquaintances of mine, Burt Rutan and his co-pilot, Jeana Yeager, flew around it in Voyager, and never once did they find an "edge"!] it would be odd to continue to say it was flat, despite what the inerrant bible says. But as to the sun and the Earth as the center of the entiure Universe? Nope. That one still hangs on!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
Well, go get your own following for your own false cult and make them do it your way
Nahhhh; I wouldn't claim to be that arrogant (unlike Christiianity's pronouncements). After all, as a scientist, I fullyunderstand and readilyaccept that the acquisition of ultimate knowledge and understanding is a never-ending process. There will NEVER be a "Final Cut", an absolute "Book of All Truths". Conversely, there will ALWAYS be new questions.
God, if he existed, would have known that the biblical era authors could not possibly have understood, say, how thunder and lightning were caused, or about radio waves or about automotive fuel injection technology or what makes the sun work absent magic mirrors.
So why would you then expect and assert that a small book of the time, moddified hundreds of times by various politically motivated groups and individuals, could possibly hope to cover all the bases, unless it's sufficiently ambiguous that it accomplishes that solely by virtue of being soopen-ended that it effectively defines nothing.
"And the Lord said there would be good days and bad, and that things would "happen" [his quotes] that were inexplicable."
Wow, huh? There. That proves everything! And anything. Forever!
That philosophy alone is what makes any attempt to claim the bible as the ultimate and inerrant and literal source of detailed, all-encompassing knowledge entirely specious [specious: superficially attractive in an argument, but of no real authority or value.]
But since you are not God, and are just a fallen human being..
Why thank you for your kindnesses!
.... then you can have no controlling power over we who have heard the Gospel and believed it, and obeyed it and repented of our sins; and by that have been adopted into His family.
But I can hope to kindle some intellectual curiosity, can't I? Or is that a sin in your world? Apparently modern knowledge and logical understanding is abhorrent to some, who then actively express that sentiment by diligently avoiding any "outside" reading...
After that adoption -and only after- we began to read the Manufacturer's handbook, and we took it in as babies taking our milk; and then we began to grow up to the meat...
Sadly, that "meat" was tainted. You should try some uncontaminated, wholesome natural meat, right off the T-Rex's bones! Oh yeah, I forgot; they went extinct about 15 million years ago.... sorry. And there I had your mounth all watered up, huh?
And I have the book written by Martinez and it was easier to do the search from on the site, where I bought it last year, than by hand typing all the mentions of the tebel/world/globe in it. I have read the book, obviously, and others like it, and many other books written by many other people, both ancient and modern books, written by believers and by non-believers, in my years as a Bible Believing Christian.
And yet, you offer to come here and attack the scientific process of trustable questioning and answering, of deductive reasoning, of rational peer-reviewed conclusions that are then happily open to further questioning, validation or improvement.
When in fact, you haven't even cracked a book on the alternate opinions, on the documented facts, on the method used by, say, Kepler. You feel somehow authorized to yell that "Kepler was wrong!" Those were, I believe, your exact words. Or was it "Kepler was a liar!" ? do corerct me if i'm wrong. I can't remember, the exact insult, but at any rate, you're not qualified to make those statements, nor to refute anything you know nothing of. Certainly not Kepler's open-to-all mathematics, in which he was a near-savant-level of methodical intellect and reasoning.
Your intense personal dislike of his calculations and the inevitable facts therein, coupled with long-established validations, does not in any way make your dismissals valid. You'll just have to prove where he lied or was wrong, and I encourage you to do so. Please.
BTW, if you're successful, you'll have earned a Nobel Prize in astro-mechanics and applied mathematics. If you have "inside information", do posit and present it! WE all want to hear it!
The topic-illiterate approach to debating, though, will get you in the dog house every time. Except in your own head of course.
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Those who let others do their thinking for them are "thoughtless".
Right from the astrophysicist expert's mouth!
