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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
^
Likewise, I can have faith that said professor has a brain because empirical evidence would suggest as much. Just like I have faith that I have a liver, though I've never personally seen it. I just know what livers do and I see the waste from my body in the toilet and I can deduce a logical conclusion.
Absolutely. Thanks for making the point that faith can indeed be rational and that all people use faith as part of logic, and it is therefore irrational for people to make fun of others' use of faith when we all are, in fact, basing our beliefs on some degree of faith.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
There were no writings left by Jesus of Nazareth, only writings about Jesus of Nazareth - writings which have been rewritten and lost and manipulated and taken out of cultural context to the point that they bear little resemblance to evidence. In contrast, we have most of George Washington's writings in tact and cross referenced to historical evidence. Your denying Washington's existence would be completely baseless - certainly not faith.
You mean we have writings that are purported to be George Washington's writings. You don't know for sure that he even existed in order to write those things. You are taking someone's word for it that George Washington wrote those things. You are using logic by applying both evidence and your faith. Who's to say that the writings purported to be George Washington's have not been manipulated and taken out of cultural context to the point that they bear little resemblance to evidence?
We know that the victors write history in many, if not most, cases. For all we know the Government has formulated a fantastic story about our nation's beginnings and fabricated the "evidence" for it.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
It's really an empty argument - this whole "I don't know Australia exists" bit that doesn't have any grounding in arguing for faith. All of these examples could be proven if one were so compelled, where as faith in the source of human consciousness cannot. All we can do is measure the effects of that consciousness and, through that, perhaps understand greater the power of the source (akin to measuring the shadows on the cave wall but never being able to turn to see the source of light itself).
That's where you demonstrate you don't understand philosophy or logic. To offer as your evidence that something "could be proven" is to admit it is not yet proven. Faith is also proven by mere logic. Nobody can know everything about everything; therefore, at some point, faith is used to accept certain things a priori, as "givens". Our understanding is limited. We can't know everything we "know" except through some degrees of faith.
It's fine if you don't understand philosophy, but don't try to call what I'm saying "an empty argument" when you have no rational response whatsoever to it. The empty argument is all yours, where you completely fail to address the issue of faith.
Oh my. You're just lost is a sea of meaningless semantics.
The fact is that every example you cite has been proven in the collective mind, of which we are all a part, it is evident that the continent we call Australia exists. And I have been there, so yes, it is proven, unlike the existence of a vengeful, angry God of any number of religious denominations.
By your little "philosophical" exercise, every fact of reality must be proven to every single human being by cutting open every head to prove there's a brain inside in order to be validated? Come on. This is just an empty argument that has no grounding in the real world and is WAY off the base of the original post.
If you based your argument on trust rather than faith, you might have a leg upon which to stand.
Who does not have faith that if America is attacked via massive nuclear attack America will respond with a nuclear attack. I have faith in my country that we will give them the same hell that was brought up on us. Is that faith? Can you prove we will respond in that way, or do you have faith in knowing we can if we want to. The only way you can believe the unknown is via faith until it is proven. You think the astronauts on Apollo 11 knew they would make it to the moon beyond a doubt, or had faith in the men that designed the Saturn V rocket to take them there. Faith is the only way to view life after death. Cannot prove anything after that. We know death happens beyond a doubt. We see death daily. If you believe nothings happens after death is that not faith in your own beliefs that is what happens. You have total faith that there is nothing after death. Some believe there is life after death, and that also is faith. We all live our lives daily via faith. Without faith you would just be a gorilla in the jungle munching on leaves all day.
Who does not have faith that if America is attacked via massive nuclear attack America will respond with a nuclear attack. I have faith in my country that we will give them the same hell that was brought up on us. Is that faith? Can you prove we will respond in that way, or do you have faith in knowing we can if we want to. The only way you can believe the unknown is via faith until it is proven. You think the astronauts on Apollo 11 knew they would make it to the moon beyond a doubt, or had faith in the men that designed the Saturn V rocket to take them there. Faith is the only way to view life after death. Cannot prove anything after that. We know death happens beyond a doubt. We see death daily. If you believe nothings happens after death is that not faith in your own beliefs that is what happens. You have total faith that there is nothing after death. Some believe there is life after death, and that also is faith. We all live our lives daily via faith. Without faith you would just be a gorilla in the jungle munching on leaves all day.
I really think you have to review your concepts. The US has nuclear weapons, they are there for a purpose and we have been told repeatedly how they are going to be used. In these circumstances, factoring in doubts about how the end of the cold war has affected policy, 'faith' in what would happen if someone attacked the US with nuclear weapons is based on very good data.
The same applies to the Apollo astronauts or, for that matter, when you drive to work. You have information, you have understanding and you have the information to make predictions. You are aware of what might happen even if you don't know whether it will happen.
That is in no way comparable to the speculation and guesswork on things about which we have unreliable or non information, such as an afterlife or the existence of gods. To compare the two quite different circumstances by designating both 'faith' is a typical example, I'm sorry to say, of the obfuscation, illogic and poor understanding verging on dishonesty of the theist apologist. You have really got to get your terms sorted before you can expect to be taken seriously.
Who does not have faith that if America is attacked via massive nuclear attack America will respond with a nuclear attack. I have faith in my country that we will give them the same hell that was brought up on us. Is that faith? Can you prove we will respond in that way, or do you have faith in knowing we can if we want to. The only way you can believe the unknown is via faith until it is proven. You think the astronauts on Apollo 11 knew they would make it to the moon beyond a doubt, or had faith in the men that designed the Saturn V rocket to take them there. Faith is the only way to view life after death. Cannot prove anything after that. We know death happens beyond a doubt. We see death daily. If you believe nothings happens after death is that not faith in your own beliefs that is what happens. You have total faith that there is nothing after death. Some believe there is life after death, and that also is faith. We all live our lives daily via faith. Without faith you would just be a gorilla in the jungle munching on leaves all day.
I don't think anyone would argue with you that your above samples are indeed examples of the necessity of faith. You are right the astronauts needed to have faith that the designed transportation would taked them to this giant observable rock in the sky. It also may take faith to expect the U.S. to retaliate but it's reasonable to expect this outcome because we know nuclear weapons exist and that the U.S. has them. What is religion's moon or nuclear stockpile? Why are we supposed to have faith that their is a god? Is the bible our empirical evidence?
I don't think anyone would argue with you that your above samples are indeed examples of the necessity of faith. You are right the astronauts needed to have faith that the designed transportation would taked them to this giant observable rock in the sky. It also may take faith to expect the U.S. to retaliate but it's reasonable to expect this outcome because we know nuclear weapons exist and that the U.S. has them. What is religion's moon or nuclear stockpile? Why are we supposed to have faith that their is a god? Is the bible our empirical evidence?
If you believe there is not god or higher sentient being that created everything is that not faith in that belief. You cannot prove one does not exist or does. All I was saying to be human you have to have faith in many things we believe or do in life to think like a human. Some people would rather believe that something intelligent created everything, as opposed to thinking that existence just has always been, but without out anything intelligent starting it in the first place. Either way you have your own faith in those beliefs.
I don't think anyone would argue with you that your above samples are indeed examples of the necessity of faith. You are right the astronauts needed to have faith that the designed transportation would taked them to this giant observable rock in the sky. It also may take faith to expect the U.S. to retaliate but it's reasonable to expect this outcome because we know nuclear weapons exist and that the U.S. has them. What is religion's moon or nuclear stockpile? Why are we supposed to have faith that their is a god? Is the bible our empirical evidence?
I would argue with it. That's not faith, that's just weighing the pros and cons of any endeavor - whether on a rocketship or biking to work or pulling into an intersection. Assessing risk and taking action based on an assessment of known factors - even if it is subconscious - is in no way related to faith in the personality of an unknown mystical God.
I could stand at the top of a steep mountain and have "faith" that I'll survive skiing down it, but I wouldn't have much faith - not nearly as much as walking to my neighbor's house without getting attacked.
Again, I think you're confusing "trust" and "faith" and the fact that the astronauts did not know for sure they would survive, but took the mission based on an assessment of risk and all the technology used to protect them as best our primitive society could.
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Originally Posted by Narcissus23
If you believe there is not god or higher sentient being that created everything is that not faith in that belief. You cannot prove one does not exist or does. All I was saying to be human you have to have faith in many things we believe or do in life to think like a human. Some people would rather believe that something intelligent created everything, as opposed to thinking that existence just has always been, but without out anything intelligent starting it in the first place. Either way you have your own faith in those beliefs.
Or you just accept that you do not know. The more I have experience the spiritual realm - and there is definitely a spiritual realm - the less arrogance I have had in believing I could ever fully understand it. So, I don't try to attribute any value.
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