Is There An Exact Moment Of Death? (grace, hell, America)
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Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe
The moment of death begins when the angel of death starts to draw out a reluctant soul from its body. The process of separation of the soul from its physical body is very, very painful. It has been described as much more painful than suffering a thousand slashes from a sword which is no surprise as this time the parting will be eternal. So contrary to how 'peaceful' a death might look on the surface, the parting of the soul is not - only the level of 'pain' i guess depends on how good the person is.
We're not talking about people that die, as in heart stops beating and breathing stops, who spontaneously on their own with no assistance, start breathing again and their heart starts beating, are we?
It seems to me that hearts restarting and breathing recommencing only really happens if there is intervention, ie a doctor, nurse or someone else who begins CPR in order to keep the blood flowing around the body and stop the process of other cells and systems dying off from lack of blood or oxygen.
In which case the plan of action by the medical team or first aider could determine fairly close to the exact moment of one's death even before the body had fully initiated the final phase of the dying process.
Sorry if I'm not sounding like I'm making sense but this question and the subsequent posts got me thinking about the death of a family member a few years back. A decision was made because of the age of the person, the type of illness they had and the predicted outcome of said illness, and the personal wishes of the family member, that should they die, they did not want to be resuscitated. Therefore when their heart and breathing stopped there was no attempt made to restart, allowing the rest of the dying process to continue. It wasn't very long after that before all warmth and colour left them.
Had the decision been made to resuscitate then certainly I'm sure that they might have managed a few more days, only to be in the same predicament again and even again perhaps. The point is their death was sealed long before their body gave up those last two very important functions AND it had been dying for some time. The process taking many months in all. Had the cells not been brutalized by cancer and chemotherapy in the time preceeding the heart and breathing stopping then perhaps the time of death would have been different. Had the age and health of the deceased been different, perhaps so too would the outcome have been different?
There's a tendency for medicine to make decisions about who is viable to resuscitate and who is not but it is resuscitation.
So I guess what I'm saying is, they are dead but medicine can bring them back, it's simply a matter of if they are available to do so, or consider the life viable.
Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) have described the moment of death to be the most painful experience for man. Even if all the pains, sufferings, torture,grief, sadness and probles of this life are combined together, they would still be less than the suffering at the time of death.
God says in the Quran“And the stupor of death will bring the truth”(50:19)
This means that the suffering while dying and its unconscious state will bring the Truth, i.e. the truth of life in the 'Barzah' (this is a sort of a way-station where all souls of the departed will be in prior to Judgement day) will be realized, angels will become visible and the person will realize the reality of punishment and reward
Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) have described the moment of death to be the most painful experience for man. Even if all the pains, sufferings, torture,grief, sadness and probles of this life are combined together, they would still be less than the suffering at the time of death.
God says in the Quran“And the stupor of death will bring the truth”(50:19)
This means that the suffering while dying and its unconscious state will bring the Truth, i.e. the truth of life in the 'Barzah' (this is a sort of a way-station where all souls of the departed will be in prior to Judgement day) will be realized, angels will become visible and the person will realize the reality of punishment and reward
Ahhh yes, more scare tactics. What do you say about those who pass in no pain, talking quietly with their family or friends, and who are ready to go? (having made their peace with themselves).
There's absolutely no evidence for what you say, other than what some have written as typical scare tactics to round up a few easily-convinced and frightened unbelievers.
The purpose of your belief system is not to answer the how of our universe. Its here to answer the why of our universe.
If your friends and family raised you Jewish your most likely Jewish. If they raised you Catholic you are probably Catholic and so on. Most people believe what people tell them to believe. We trust people because its impossible to find out everything for ourselves.
So what happens eons ago when someone doesn't know, and can't know, the answer to a question, like death. The same thing parents do to kids today. We make something up!
Little Janey doesn't know why her hamster wont wake up, and just like early man can not comprehend the complexities of death. We tell here that the hamster is "Sleeping" and "Cant Wake up" Also that the hamster "Is in a better place". Why do we say things like this, because it makes us feel better in the face of unanswerable questions. Even though there is no hamster heaven in Christan based religions.
Who wants to believe that when you die its like a light bulb burning out. That nothing happens, you just fade away to an eternal void. Its far more comforting to think that there is more after death, that life counts for something and your being is eternal.
Your Belief system is a philosophy, its here to comfort you when nothing else can. It gives you hope when there is none, and peace of mind in a cruel world. If religion is to survive into the future it must exist as it works best, a metaphor for morality. Not as scientific doctrine. For witch it is horrible at.
I was reading a news story about a man who had been declared dead multiple times a couple of days ago and it made me stop and wonder if that point between life and death is really that easy to define.
There's a difference between being declared dead and being physically dead. You can be 'declared dead' if your heart stops (ie, it's possible to revive someone who suffers cardiac arrest, if it's done quickly enough); for legal purposes, if you are later revived you were 'dead' for that period.
Being physically dead, on the other hand, is usually a matter of physical descriptors: to be physiologically 'dead', your body must be unable to maintain basic cell function even if proper resuscitation efforts are applied. Thus, brain-death could be considered the 'point of no return' when it comes to being physically dead.
I sat with both my Grandmother and Grandfather as they died and all medical considerations aside, you know when someone is dead. They simply aren't there anymore and what is left behind isn't them anymore. It's impossible to explain, but you just know the very instant that they are gone.
I was reading a news story about a man who had been declared dead multiple times a couple of days ago and it made me stop and wonder if that point between life and death is really that easy to define. Of course if a person suffers severe head trauma in a car accident they may be killed instantly and there really isn't a question about the moment of their death. It becomes much more complicated when medical advances have allowed people who by all appearances were dead to be revived. I have the opinion that all of these stories we hear about individuals who claim to have died and were brought back to life were never actually dead in the first place. Their heart may have stopped beating and there's no breathing or brain activity but their body is still viable for life if medical attention is promptly given. Even the simple process of giving someone CPR can bring them out of that state in which death is inevitable unless some outside intervention can save them. When you consider all of these factors it seems to me that in many cases it really isn't possible to state that there is an exact moment when a person has died. What we have instead is a brief period of time in which a person may appear dead and is in fact in the process of dying but still has the potential to be revived but this isn't something that can be clear cut and easily determined. Any thoughts?
The definition of "death" has changed dramatically throughout time. It used to be when the heart stopped beating. However, we know thats not the case. When a person is decapitated, the brain is still working for around 30 seconds at least. There is enormous amounts of electrical energy in the mind, and it takes a while for that to stop.
Look at the case I posted before. I don't personally buy the "brain-stem REM" argument that the University of Kentucky does, but I posted that to show that a brain, deprived of blood for 45 minutes, was brought back to life.
How weird (and cool) is that. 45 minutes without what could be considered life, and then they were brought back to consiousness.
I do believe in a life after death. I believe that we do leave this body when we die, and thats why you people see their body, can detail procedures being done to it, and all of the other weird stuff associated with NDE's.
[quote=MontanaGuy;8285805]I was reading a news story about a man who had been declared dead multiple times a couple of days ago and it made me stop and wonder if that point between life and death is really that easy to define. Of course if a person suffers severe head trauma in a car accident they may be killed instantly and there really isn't a question about the moment of their death. It becomes much more complicated when medical advances have allowed people who by all appearances were dead to be revived. I have the opinion that all of these stories we hear about individuals who claim to have died and were brought back to life were never actually dead in the first place. Their heart may have stopped beating and there's no breathing or brain activity but their body is still viable for life if medical attention is promptly given. Even the simple process of giving someone CPR can bring them out of that state in which death is inevitable unless some outside intervention can save them. When you consider all of these factors it seems to me that in many cases it really isn't possible to state that there is an exact moment when a person has died. What we have instead is a brief period of time in which a person may appear dead and is in fact in the process of dying but still has the potential to be revived but this isn't something that can be clear cut and easily determined. Any thoughts?[/quote]
yes.
too m-any. and probably never to be trusted with tech freaks and their utilitarian materialist speculations!
My wife was the same, no light, no pain, no visions, than just back. I know when I have had major injuries and my body black out for extended periods there is no pain and in my case no grasp of reality. It is just emptiness and peace. I noticed even after you come back there is a lag prior to pain. I think this is much like the approach of death. It is just an easy slip into the restful death. In my family I have noticed the shift from life to death several times. Watched as suffering gave way to a peace and pain vanished from the face. It removed the fear related to dying; I now see it as a gift when the time is right.
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