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The testing of the ceramics was done by testing the organic material, or carbon on the ceramics, and that was follow up by the thermoluminescent method. In either case, both methods show the figurines to be ancient. The testing was done, and the results are known. And your people don't want to believe those results. And not one of them, have shown any intrest in a scientific review of the figurines. So your scientific community does not appear to need scientific evidence to form their opinions.
(I WONDER WHY?) Four times the figurines have been tested, and four times the results show ancient. Would it convince you, if they were tested a fifth time? I guess as long as you have scientist out there, who will not lift a finger to test the figurines, you can always hide behind their lack of motivation, or their denials. And the only corroborating evidence they have, comes from one bias believer in evolution from the 1950s. So much for scientific honesty. The real reason they will not test the figurines, has more to do with scientific dogma. And that's the only tool science used to dispute the figurines. And that is the real reason you can not show us any review from your side. Because they have ignored everything found at El Toro Mountain, and moved on.
In July 1945 (although some accounts say 1944), a German immigrant to Mexico, Waldemar Julsrud (1875/6-1952), a hardware merchant, discovered a number of clay figurines at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Guanajuato. Charles Hapgood (1904-1982), the historian of science from Keene College (New Hampshire, USA) who first made the impossible claims about the Piri Re’is map, also promoted claims that the figurines are genuinely ancient artefacts showing extinct animals, including dinosaurs. On the other hand, he was troubled by the near-perfect condition of what are often very delicate objects and the complete absence of any sort of patination that might have developed during centuries (or even millennia) of burial. It has been claimed that radiocarbon dates from organic materials on their surfaces are around 6,500 years old, although neither precise dates nor laboratory numbers are supplied. There is little doubt that the figurines are of recent date; thermoluminescent tests would be sufficient to establish their approximate date of manufacture. --snip--
Thermoluminescent dating would establish whether the objects are of recent manufacture of genuinely ancient, but it has not been carried out on any of them.
This page was last updated on 7 May 2007
Written by Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews
Acámbaro has been notable as a point of controversy in the field of archeology as the source of the Acambaro figures, a collection of about 32,000 clay figurines discovered by German archaeologist Waldemar Julsrud in 1944 near the city's most prominent landmark, the Cerro del Toro (Bull Hill). The figures are claimed to be hoaxes, as some of the figurines resembled dinosaurs (thus implying that man and dinosaurs co-existed) and their discovery is used by some as evidence to support creationism. Many of the Julsrud finds are now on display at the Museo Waldemar Julsrud.
Unless you can provide lab numbers or refute this recent rebuttal, then I guess we are just going to ignore it.
My guess is as earlier stated, that the folk made them and now there is a roaring trade of replicas. Just like the ark hoax in Turkey, they do not want the myth exposed as it is a big money spinner.
As I wrote earlier, the YEC examine from a presupposition then examine the "evidence" leading back to the conclusion. That is not the scientific method.
If this was your slam dunk evidence why not then get them publicly subjected to objective analysis?
BTW that was a question you can pass onto your YEC prompters - I would be interested in what their excuse is. While you are about it, ask them about the falls, the kango and sudwala caves, the ice cores and the Swedish tree of 9550 YO origin. Seeing that C14 is OK on ceramics and stone, I am sure they will accept the C14 tests carried out on an organism that is actually carbon based and has consumed carbon.
Well both horses and humans have legs, do you think humans evolved from horses? Similarities do not mean we evolved from something similar.
We are bipeds not quadrupeds - big difference - bone structure not even close however both mamals. Why not relate to the nearest cousin the ape? Scared you might find one more objective than you?
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And of course there is nothing in the fossil record, that would even suggest that.
Agreed
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However, National Geographic I bet could draw you some nice pictures showing us a dino bird. They did post a fake dino fossil on the cover of their magazine.
You know I have cited National Geographic once on this thread so what are you trying to do here? That was on the tree but the tree is covered in multiple sites.
We are not discussing secularism here, evolution and the age of the planet and Fred Flintstone's dino pets once in awhile.
Please you quote me and refuse to answer the question on the original translators of the KJV being Holy Spirit inspired.
There bold and red this time. I will keep asking until you answer. It is after all a cornerstone AoF of the YEC camp in line with biblical inerrancy.
Y'all are getting way too hung up on this whole "tail" argument. Does behemoth have a tail like a cedar or a tail that moves like a cedar? There is absolutely nothing in the verse that says anything about the size of the tail. Instead, it has everything to do with the tail's movements.
If you are not familiar with old colloquialisms, you might just latch on to the tail idea, in support of wanting behemoth to be a dinosaur. Notice the context of "tail." This is important and is often missed. It is part of a description with "stones." Hebrew scholars have long asserted that the "tail" and "stones" when used conjunctively were merely quaint euphemisms for male genitals.
This fits in perfectly with what I have contended before. And that is when taken in context, which many demand here so often, this "tail," is not a tail, as in an extension of the spinal cord, at all.
Even if the verse has to do with the tail's size, it is still wrong to assert that Behemoth was a dinosaur. For, believe it or not, the 'tail' in the verse, when interpreted exactly right in full context, has nothing to do with cedar trees or animal tails, but has tons to do with the beast's sexual pleasures! When you look at a much fuller context of the passage you will find that the 'tail' in the passage is used as a euphemism for the phallus, the "wheenie" part of the penis!
So I don't believe it was talking about a tail at all, when taken in context. This is probably why elephant or hippo is suggested as a possible candidate, because the commentaries recognize the euphemism.
Let's look at Job 40:16-17 again,
Now compare that with the other version of the 2 verses, this time accurately translated by Stephen Mitchell, a professional translator who, in 1992, wrote and published a highly accurate translation of The Book of Job,
Don't you think these 2 passages tell us that Behemoth was in heat and with great intension, desire, and determination wishes to mate with any female of his kind he chooses? It sure does look like it! This, what is shown here, can only mean one thing. These 2 verses do not describe the dinosaur's bendable whiplash tail. Instead, the verses clearly refers to the sexual behavior of Behemoth, who was a huge powerful mammal, with his penis stiffened like a tall tree while mating with a female of his own kind. Besides, dinosaurs do not have navels, nor do they have penises outside their bodies either.
This is probably why elephant or hippo is suggested as a possible candidate, because the commentaries recognize the euphemism. This is not surprising that this beast's genitals would be spoken of in such an aggrandizing way. STUDIO 925 The Sacred Phallus phallic symbolism cultural customs phallus worship ceremonies magic power beliefs rites lore myths erotic art jewelry (http://www.studio925.com/phallus.htm - broken link)
So look at this "happy" cedar. SCHWIIING!!
If you read both chapters 40 and 41 of Job, there is no way your going to walk away thinking we are talking about an elephant or a hippo. I doubt you will be able to find any serious Biblical scholar outside of Stephen Mitchell who would agree with his tail theory. And once you read chapter 41, you soon understand that the leviathan is beyond anything we see around today.
If you read both chapters 40 and 41 of Job, there is no way your going to walk away thinking we are talking about an elephant or a hippo. I doubt you will be able to find any serious Biblical scholar outside of Stephen Mitchell who would agree with his tail theory. And once you read chapter 41, you soon understand that the leviathan is beyond anything we see around today.
Is that all you got? Not that I expected you to like it, since you reeeeaally want it to be a Dinosaur. What do you know about any serious Biblical scholars? Only ignorant "scholars" would not be familiar with the Hebrew tail and stones euphemism. The hippo is just the behemoth or "river horse." It is not the Leviathan - that's the crocodile. Did you know that the hippo and the crocodile are top two beasties responsible for the most deaths by animal attacks in that area of the world? How about that? Just a coinkidink?
In July 1945 (although some accounts say 1944), a German immigrant to Mexico, Waldemar Julsrud (1875/6-1952), a hardware merchant, discovered a number of clay figurines at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Guanajuato. Charles Hapgood (1904-1982), the historian of science from Keene College (New Hampshire, USA) who first made the impossible claims about the Piri Re’is map, also promoted claims that the figurines are genuinely ancient artefacts showing extinct animals, including dinosaurs. On the other hand, he was troubled by the near-perfect condition of what are often very delicate objects and the complete absence of any sort of patination that might have developed during centuries (or even millennia) of burial. It has been claimed that radiocarbon dates from organic materials on their surfaces are around 6,500 years old, although neither precise dates nor laboratory numbers are supplied. There is little doubt that the figurines are of recent date; thermoluminescent tests would be sufficient to establish their approximate date of manufacture. --snip--
Thermoluminescent dating would establish whether the objects are of recent manufacture of genuinely ancient, but it has not been carried out on any of them.
This page was last updated on 7 May 2007
Written by Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews
Acámbaro has been notable as a point of controversy in the field of archeology as the source of the Acambaro figures, a collection of about 32,000 clay figurines discovered by German archaeologist Waldemar Julsrud in 1944 near the city's most prominent landmark, the Cerro del Toro (Bull Hill). The figures are claimed to be hoaxes, as some of the figurines resembled dinosaurs (thus implying that man and dinosaurs co-existed) and their discovery is used by some as evidence to support creationism. Many of the Julsrud finds are now on display at the Museo Waldemar Julsrud.
Unless you can provide lab numbers or refute this recent rebuttal, then I guess we are just going to ignore it.
My guess is as earlier stated, that the folk made them and now there is a roaring trade of replicas. Just like the ark hoax in Turkey, they do not want the myth exposed as it is a big money spinner.
As I wrote earlier, the YEC examine from a presupposition then examine the "evidence" leading back to the conclusion. That is not the scientific method.
If this was your slam dunk evidence why not then get them publicly subjected to objective analysis?
BTW that was a question you can pass onto your YEC prompters - I would be interested in what their excuse is. While you are about it, ask them about the falls, the kango and sudwala caves, the ice cores and the Swedish tree of 9550 YO origin. Seeing that C14 is OK on ceramics and stone, I am sure they will accept the C14 tests carried out on an organism that is actually carbon based and has consumed carbon.
Waiting.
The figurines are claimed to be hoaxes?
1. WHO MAKES THAT CLAIM?
2. AND IF THEY WERE A HOAX, WHO MADE 33,000 OF THEM AND BURIED THEM?
3. AND FOR WHAT REASON?
4. AND WHERE DID THOSE WHO MADE THESE FIGURINES GET THE KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE DINOSAURE FIGURINES, THAT EVEN SCIENCE DID NOT KNOW EXIST BACK IN THE 1940s?
And in 1997 President of the Early Sites Research Society West and Mexican Epigraphic Society tried to debunk the collection. Yet when their results came back, it showed the human figurine to be 4,000 BP. and the dinosaur figurine to be 1500 BP.
John Tierney took a half dozen samples of Julsrud ceramics to a team at Ohio State University. Dr. J.O. Everhart (Chairman of the Department of Ceramic Engineering), Dr. Earle R Caley one of the worlst most respected achaeological chemist, and Dr. Ernest G Ehlers who was the mineralogist in the geology department at Ohio State University. They reported that they could not believe the artifacts were made in modern times, nor did they believe they were made by some amateur who tried to perpetuate a fraud.
The figurines were tested again by Dr. Victor J. Bortolet, Director of Research of Daybreak Nucleari Archaeometrics Laboratory Services for dating. Dr. Bortulot determined the pieces upper limit of age to 2,000 years old.
I have provided names of those involoved, you can ignore them if you wish, ignoring evidence is what believers in evolution do best.
Is that all you got? Not that I expected you to like it, since you reeeeaally want it to be a Dinosaur. What do you know about any serious Biblical scholars? Only ignorant "scholars" would not be familiar with the Hebrew tail and stones euphemism. The hippo is just the behemoth or "river horse." It is not the Leviathan - that's the crocodile. Did you know that the hippo and the crocodile are top two beasties responsible for the most deaths by animal attacks in that area of the world? How about that? Just a coinkidink?
Campbell is now in his "comfort" zone the bible which sadly he has little schooling in as is evident by his make-stuff-up-as-you-go-along approach; the problem when you try merge science and the bible and also when you take everything literally - of course metaphorically only when it suits their cause.
He avoids my questions continuously so he knows his poor theology and lack of scientific (basic) knowledge is being exposed bit by bit.
Thanks for your posts and BTW the Hippo is the top killer in Africa of the two.
You do not read do you? I quoted some text and provided the link
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2. AND IF THEY WERE A HOAX, WHO MADE 33,000 OF THEM AND BURIED THEM?
Dunno, you're the expert, please enlighten us.
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3. AND FOR WHAT REASON?
The only reason the YEC and left behinders do it $$$$$$$$
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4. AND WHERE DID THOSE WHO MADE THESE FIGURINES GET THE KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE DINOSAURE FIGURINES, THAT EVEN SCIENCE DID NOT KNOW EXIST BACK IN THE 1940s?
Common, you really think that that attempt was a real depiction of a dino? My cat and dogs lays more interesting turds than that.
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And in 1997 President of the Early Sites Research Society West and Mexican Epigraphic Society tried to debunk the collection. Yet when their results came back, it showed the human figurine to be 4,000 BP. and the dinosaur figurine to be 1500 BP.
John Tierney took a half dozen samples of Julsrud ceramics to a team at Ohio State University. Dr. J.O. Everhart (Chairman of the Department of Ceramic Engineering), Dr. Earle R Caley one of the worlst most respected achaeological chemist, and Dr. Ernest G Ehlers who was the mineralogist in the geology department at Ohio State University. They reported that they could not believe the artifacts were made in modern times, nor did they believe they were made by some amateur who tried to perpetuate a fraud.
The figurines were tested again by Dr. Victor J. Bortolet, Director of Research of Daybreak Nucleari Archaeometrics Laboratory Services for dating. Dr. Bortulot determined the pieces upper limit of age to 2,000 years old.
I have provided names of those involoved, you can ignore them if you wish, ignoring evidence is what believers in evolution do best.
They are asking lab numbers which appear missing, you need to convince them not me, to me they are BS based on ALLLLL the other evidence I have read and presented here.
Why not run along and ask your prompters at AiG or creation museum to answer my questions and explain what I have asked numerous times.
I know I have debunked the YEC completely with four different unrelated disciplines in science so until you or anyone at the YEC sites can provide plausible answers or hypothesis. You are not a good representative for them as you refuse to answer any questions.
All you have is this mexican crap and the hippo and crocodile.
Please show me a reputable concordance that shows these creatures translated as dinos.
Perhaps if you look at the other arguments/explanations in real science concerning your OopO, you may save yourself the embarressment of wasting everyones time. It sure looks like you cannot bring anything forward that I cannot find a reasonable scientific explanation to debunk.
Tell me when you are ready to move on to ice cores.
Oh and never mind the AiG sunken WWII planes in snow, we are talking ICE not snow and seeing the Antarctic cores are 750k old and there are no WWII planes there which just like your ark they cannot seem to wrestle from the ice.
Happy hunting
Oh, still waiting for the translators of the original KJV being HS inspired an all.
Campbell is now in his "comfort" zone the bible which sadly he has little schooling in as is evident by his make-stuff-up-as-you-go-along approach; the problem when you try merge science and the bible and also when you take everything literally - of course metaphorically only when it suits their cause.
He avoids my questions continuously so he knows his poor theology and lack of scientific (basic) knowledge is being exposed bit by bit.
Thanks for your posts and BTW the Hippo is the top killer in Africa of the two.
And is the Hippos pride his scales? and are they shut together so tight, that air can not come between them? I don't think I have ever saw a Hippo like that.
And you still have not answered which one of your scientist did the scientific review on the figurines of El Toro Mountain?
Oh, and could you plese tell me what I made up, or is that another one of those (ASSUMPTIONS) you guys believe in?
I just thought I'd point out another of so many errors you have made here Campbell....
You said...... 4. AND WHERE DID THOSE WHO MADE THESE FIGURINES GET THE KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE DINOSAURE FIGURINES, THAT EVEN SCIENCE DID NOT KNOW EXIST BACK IN THE 1940s?
Sir Richard Owen, an anatomist and paleontologist, was studying bone fragments from England. He noticed that – unlike lizards whose limbs sprawl out to the side – the limbs of these creatures were held beneath the body. Owen announced his belief that the bones belonged to a distinct group of giant animals – and he coined the name “Dinosauria,” which in his own translation meant “fearfully great.” The year was 1841 – and our understanding of dinosaurs has been evolving ever since.
You are off by a hundred years Campbell.
Ironically discoveries of dinosaur bones may have given rise to myths of Dragons, giant men and v other mythical creatures mentioned in the bible, because people have been finding them for thousands of years, but did not know what they were.
And is the Hippos pride his scales? and are they shut together so tight, that air can not come between them? I don't think I have ever saw a Hippo like that.
And you still have not answered which one of your scientist did the scientific review on the figurines of El Toro Mountain?
Oh, and could you plese tell me what I made up, or is that another one of those (ASSUMPTIONS) you guys believe in?
Oh I don't think you make anything up Campbell....You simply go to the nearest convenient AIG or creationist site and parrot what they say...Easy as pie and avoids that nasty process called thinking for yourself.
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One of the Acambaro figurines
What do you know about any serious Biblical scholars? Only ignorant "scholars" would not be familiar with the Hebrew tail and stones euphemism. The hippo is just the behemoth or "river horse." It is not the Leviathan - that's the crocodile. Did you know that the hippo and the crocodile are top two beasties responsible for the most deaths by animal attacks in that area of the world? How about that? Just a coinkidink? 
