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Every single one of your objections can be refuted by this single precept of secular humanism:
"A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us."
The problem comes into play when people such as you do not offer us the same courtesy. It's not we, the secular humanists, that are causing the problems between you and us. We accept that everyone has different beliefs, and as long as you're not hurting anyone, then good on ya. But when you start trying to tell us that your way is the only Truth, that's where you err, miserably.
Therein lies the rub.... I believe there is absolute truth, absolute morals and that Christ is the only way. Simply because that is what I believe, because I am a Christian, then the tolerance offered by humanists evaporates towards me and they are intolerant towards me and my beliefs.
I believe Christ is THE way, THE truth and THE life. So, if secular humanists don't believe in absolute truth, how can they be humanist and also believe in Christ? How can they expouse tolerance, yet be so intolerant when it comes to my beliefs? It's a contradiction to me.
Therein lies the rub.... I believe there is absolute truth, absolute morals and that Christ is the only way. Simply because that is what I believe, because I am a Christian, then the tolerance offered by humanists evaporates towards me and they are intolerant towards me and my beliefs.
I believe Christ is THE way, THE truth and THE life. So, if secular humanists don't believe in absolute truth, how can they be humanist and also believe in Christ? How can they expouse tolerance, yet be so intolerant when it comes to my beliefs? It's a contradiction to me.
I think you are confusing intolerance with disagreement...I do not believe in Christ, but I respect your right to believe whatever you want....Are you saying that humanists who do not believe as you do are intolerant? I don't follow your line of thinking here.
I think you are confusing intolerance with disagreement...
Yep. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is welcome to believe whatever they wish, as long as it's not hurting someone else, and as long as they're not trying to push me to believe the same way. *shrug*
Children have a hard enough time learning that their pets, grandparents, parents, and themselves will one day die. Then they learn of all the suffering, albeit temporary, in this world and it's another shock.
People like you Brian are proof of the horrific abuse it is to put unimaginable horror like an eternal fiery hell into an innocent little child's mind.
There are many threads on this (or in the Christianity forum) which show that the concept of unending agony is the construct of men who when seeing the effectiveness this pagan doctrine had in keeping the masses fearful and obedient incorporated it into the 'church' when Christianity became the official state religion of Rome. It's so obvious it's ridiculous.
This is not what Jesus came to bring us.
I haven't read this book yet but by the info given on this page I'll guess it is an eye opener on this subject: Saving Paradise » About the Book
Thank, you, Firstborn, You clearly empathise perfectly with what I was trying to say. I do feel rather strongly on this issue, just as you do, and with plenty of cause, in my view.
I had a look at the link you supplied, many thanks, it does indeed look like something I would very much like to read, and add to my collection of similar books.
Mams did post a reply (as you can see somewhere above), but I don't think I really managed to get through to him because his stance, however well-intentioned, is perhaps a bit too fixed at this stage. I can only be thankful when he says his kids are made of tougher material!
Not so, all of us, I'm afraid....
Brian.
Last edited by brianrees; 11-05-2008 at 02:26 PM..
I can remember as a fairly young child hearing about the torments of hell and eternal suffering and really being scared by it. They talk about the violence in video games and how unhealthy it can be for kids but that's nothing compared with the concept of someone literally being tortured forever and being told that it's really true. Eventually I came to realize that there is no such place as hell and that it's a useful way of controlling the behavior of people. Unfortunately many people do believe that hell is a very real place and even though the overwhelming majority of Christians are loving parents they should probably consider very carefully how they go about explaining their beliefs about hell.
But not believing in God isn't a "simple" matter. It is a huge matter. Either you are for Christ or you are against him. There is no middle ground. While you may be seeking him, if you haven't accepted him, you're still against him. But I digress....
I have 2 children, 14 and 13. They've been raised in church and in a Christian home. I've read them the bible since they were born until they were able to read it on their own. My son's favorite book of the bible is Job ... I know why, but that's not the topic here. They have both accepted Christ as their savior. They've studied their bibles and they come with questions and I answer them as honestly and as truthfully as I can. You can't read the bible without reading about hell/grave/eternal separation from God.
The topic of hell is approached on an age-appropriate level at all times. The same as with any difficult subject (like sex). You don't give them more than they can handle and you explain it in a way they can understand. But, like ILNC said, you can't talk about hell unless you also talk about God. And my children understand and have determined to follow what I believe also, that God doesn't send anyone to hell.... people send themselves based on the choices they make in this life. Also, they understand only God knows who will go there and who will not. It is not our place to say who will or will not. It is approached from a biblical worldview ... that which seems foreign to non-believers.
Did you or your children ever have a choice on whether or not to read the bible?
Honestly, forcing religion on a child should be considered abuse. Like marriage/sex, religion should only be allowed between consenting adults. It's just as dangerous, if not more so. How does "accepting Christ" make one a better person? It does not, it just gives them excuse to not try as hard to make a difference or to find the answers themselves. Hell is a fear tactic that Jesus would have despised. It has been used in countless wars and persecutions as an excuse. There is no good in teaching children that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Jesus. In fact, I agree that it should be considered abuse.
I think there is a certain age a child should be told about hell,on the flip side the child should be told about God's love for them and what His Son Jesus is all about and His love for the father.This should be the main focus to tell the child about the love of the Lord and that he or she should be obedient to their parent because that is the way God would want them to be.
All that a child of a certain age should be rsponsible for is to be obedient to their parents and to mind their parents. Hopefully their parents are Christians and will set Christ-like examples for their children so that they have the love of the Lord in their heart and have aspirations for Heaven whereby hell is just an afterthought.
Thank, you, Firstborn, You clearly empathise perfectly with what I was trying to say. I do feel rather strongly on this issue, just as you do, and with plenty of cause, in my view. .......
........Mams did post a reply (as you can see somewhere above), but I don't think I really managed to get through to him because his stance, however well-intentioned, is perhaps a bit too fixed at this stage. I can only be thankful when he says his kids are made of tougher material!
Not so, all of us, I'm afraid....
Brian.
I contend that NOBODY, in their heart of hearts, really believes this stuff (and I worked with hell fire 'believers' for 30 years) as shown by their priorities (for example: off watching movies instead of in hospitals trying to stop those who are near death from this horrible fate). Those with deep empathy and compassion can and do literally go insane thinking about this (like my online friend Roger Tutt for example).
I deal with people who suffer from OCD who live in terror day after day because of this insanity they've been taught.
Most just give mental assent to eternal torment doctrine but don't really take it in.
Did you or your children ever have a choice on whether or not to read the bible?
Yes, we/they did/do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6
Honestly, forcing religion on a child should be considered abuse. Like marriage/sex, religion should only be allowed between consenting adults. It's just as dangerous, if not more so. How does "accepting Christ" make one a better person? It does not, it just gives them excuse to not try as hard to make a difference or to find the answers themselves. Hell is a fear tactic that Jesus would have despised. It has been used in countless wars and persecutions as an excuse. There is no good in teaching children that they will go to hell if they do not believe in Jesus. In fact, I agree that it should be considered abuse.
IMO this post is indicitive of how little many folks truly understand what Christianity teaches or what it's all about. It is not something forced on them. It is something they are exposed to and taught about. As a matter of fact, I personally know of several folks who were raised in a loving Christian home, taught about Jesus and Christianity who walked away from it. A couple were pre-teen and others were mid to late teens. And two were in their mid twenties. So you see, just because a child is taught it and exposed to it is no guarantee that they will accept it. It is a personal choice to do so. I am thankful my children have accepted Christ. Does that mean that they will always beleive or always follow Jesus? No, because there are no guarantees. I pray they will always believe, but ultimately it's between them and God.
Also, if one accepts Jesus, then one also accepts the responsibility that comes along with it. Professing belief is meaningless without walking the walk (bearing good fruit). I believe it's out of some people's own personal bad experiences, fear, ignorance or a combination thereof that they call teaching children about God/Jesus/Bible/Hell abuse. If it is such a traumatizing event, as several on this thread have stated, why did Jesus himself tell his followers not to keep the children from him, because it is "such as these" that will inherit the kingdom?
Matthew 11:25
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to littlechildren. Matthew 11:24-26 (in Context) Matthew 11 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like littlechildren, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:2-4 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 19:13
[ The LittleChildren and Jesus ] Then littlechildren were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. Matthew 19:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 19 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the littlechildren come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Also, Jesus taught more about hell than any other figure in the NT. Understand that teaching children about hell, its reality, its existence, does not have to be damaging. I'm sure there are those out there that go about it the wrong way from many people's perspective, but that does not mean that everyone who teaches their children about it should automatically be lumped in with them.
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