morality...a peaceful discussion.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by more excellent way

"What would JESUS do?" is actually the wrong attitude, we should always ask "What are WE going to do?".

And how do you know what you would do if you do not have a prior example? This is why I take Jesus as my example.
To understand Jesus you have to understand his philosophy.
If you do not understand Jesus' philosophy you will not have heard 1 word Jesus has said. Once you have come to the decision what Jesus would do, you can ask yourself would I agree with this or not? If you do you should ask yourself why and if you do not you should also reflect on why not.

Or to say it with simple words: I am my father's son, but I am not my father.
Whenever I have to make a tough decision I always ask what my deceased father would do and on the basis of my father's decision I make my own decision.
It is very easy for me to know what my father would do, or would want me to do, but I have no problem to walk a different path, as long as I know why I choose differently.

[more excellent way]

When I was young, my dad taught me good principles. I learned well from him because he taught me "principles", not "examples". He never even suggested that my behavior should be determined by or modelled after his own, he simply taught me "principles" so that I could be 'my own person', make (and learn from) 'my own' mistakes (and therefore, I could also ENJOY the rewards of avoiding mistakes, enjoy 'good behavior', enjoy making my own decisions, and enjoy the opportunities of OVERCOMING 'my own' challenges. Whenever my mother would interfere, I would say "NO, I want to do it myself".

God is our heavenly dad, He knows we want to experience life for ourself and overcome our own challenges. This is also HIS 'desire', but His desires, likes and dislikes were never taught in Christianity, traditional Christianity only contains a 'COMMANDER' that will crush you if you don't 'salute' (this is a VERY unkind way to view such a loving creator who has done all His works, creation and salvation for us...the "strong delusion" seems like our self imposed 'just deserves'...POETIC JUSTICE).

God also wants/desires us to enjoy making our own decisions, enjoy reaping the rewards of good behavior/attitudes, and enjoy avoiding/overcoming obstacles and challenges.

There is alot of information in the bible that God makes AVAILABLE to us (if only we wish to find it). He lets us know that there are "principles" of God. A crowd of Hebrew Christians was told that they had failed to learn to walk with The Lord properly and still knew nothing but the 'milk' of Christianity (they need to go back and first learn the "principles" of God, Hebrews 5:12).

Scripture also contains alot of good advice and profound insight into human nature (so we will be able to avoid the 'flaming arrows' of the all people who want to use and abuse us,...plus all of the confusion from the god of confusion). Satan can only TEMPT us to destroy 'peace' and cause confusion, it is the iniquitous person that CAUSES evil to happen (but traditional "christians" would rather not accept responsibility for their own actions, so, satan has always been the convenient scapegoat).

"Examples" are also a scapegoat so that we don't have to "accept responsibility" for "our own" actions. The TRADITIONAL/institutional teachings of Christianity produce modern Pharisees (bureaucratic/textual, partisan with 'gestures'/protocol) with a devotion based on a SCRIPT (SCRIPTural) that misleads the people. Jesus told the pharisees that after they proselytize, they make someone "TWICE" a "child of hell"...
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for RSV

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by more excellent way

When I was young, my dad taught me good principles. I learned well from him because he taught me "principles", not "examples". He never even suggested that my behavior should be determined by or modelled after his own, he simply taught me "principles" so that I could be 'my own person', make (and learn from) 'my own' mistakes (and therefore, I could also ENJOY the rewards of avoiding mistakes, enjoy 'good behavior', enjoy making my own decisions, and enjoy the opportunities of OVERCOMING 'my own' challenges.

What makes you think my father only taught me examples? My father is a leader and not a ruler so he gave me many examples through his actions.
His younger brother is a catholic priest who, unlike my father, studied the Bible intently.
But by comparing the characters of these 2 men I learned who truly is a man of God.

Besidez, the only way to learn how to analyse others correctly is by learning how to analyse yourself 1st.

[more excellent way]

I understand that you 'saw' many examples of good behavior and attitudes from your father's noble character.

You saw many examples of good behavior from your dad, and you also saw good examples from his brother, but you took all of the examples of good behavior from both and developed good 'principles' for your own behavior, in other words, an example can be seen and visually observed, a "principle" cannot be visually observed, a principle is in the mind/heart.

Both can produce good behavior, but God wants our goodness to come from our mind and heart,...from our own freewill (God looks at the heart).

I don't mean to analyze anyone (if I gave you that impression, I apologize for my clumsiness/awkwardness, analysis of a person is not a nice thing to do, it would be judgemental), I was only trying to explain my point about the difference between examples and principles.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by more excellent way

and you also saw good examples from his brother, but you took all of the examples of good behavior from both and developed good 'principles' for your own behavior, in other words, an example can be seen and visually observed, a "principle" cannot be visually observed, a principle is in the mind/heart.

I did not have encountered a more selfish man as my father's brother who also is a Catholic priest. I learned by examining his actions against the things he preached what a hypocrite is, what a holier than thou attitude is, what bigotry is, what it truly means to have ambition.
I am not saying my father is a saint but compared to his brother, a so called man of God, he was.
My father never pretended to be a man of God, yet all his actions proved that he at least tried to and I respect and love him for that.
My father never had this attitude of do what I say and not as I do, which his brother the priest had in spades.

I don't mean to analyze anyone

I have no problem with judging people; it is how I can tell who is a wolf in sheep's clothing and who is not.
I judge others by the exact same standard I judge myself.

[Huckleberry3911948]

one in quality but not in quantity as the drop is one with the ocean but in quality not quantity. we and i are one a reflection of the great body called spirit- god. like snowflakes beautiful, each on unique making up the snow.