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This is a crock. There is no historical evidence for Jesus.
You keep saying this like you're telling people something they don't already know. Along with the dwindling numbers in people of faith --- it is known and expected. In fact, it is how people of faith know (as they observe) which way the wind is blowing ... the handwriting is on the wall; those with the eyes to see will see.
Well, Mink I believed for 60 years and I don't recall God showing me anything. And it's not just me, Mink. As I'm sure you're aware, millions of Americans are ditching Jesus for freedom from religion.
In a new study out today, Pew projects that in 2070, Christians will likely make up less than half the US population.
Clearly, the vast majority of these people dropping out of Christianity have "been there, done that, didn't like the results".
So At this point in my life I have very little reason if any to "believe and I'll show you." God had his chance. He's not getting a second one from me.
But about your pep talk, I'll say: it's good that you're an optimist. I don't pin any metals on myself for being a realist, it's just the...heh heh...the way god made me.
It's a pretty ugly world out there, Mink. Atrocities of the worst kind are taking place by the tens of thousands every second of the day and night. A good percentage of these people are doing what you are suggesting--"believing" God will deliver from and the only thing the get delivered from is life--in some of the cruelest and most brutally painful ways. Some God! Do you really want to suggest the kid below and millions like him simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get a university education and become ambassadors or something?
I plan to do a thread on this subject at some point but I'll give you a preview: it wasn't the fact that there isn't any historical evidence for Jesus ever living that convinced me to leave Christianity. It was the fact that Yahweh originated as a man-made pagan small god among the Canaanite people before the Hebrews even existed. He was a minor god of metallurgy and as Canaan began to absorb the Hebrews who moved into the neighborhood, the Hebrews adopted Yahweh as their god along a with a few others. The Hebrews originally were polytheist--they believed in many gods.
Interesting. But here's the thing: Genesis 4:26 says, "To Seth, in turn, a son was born, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to invoke the LORD by name."
Canaan didn't even exist at the time of Seth. In fact, it wouldn't exist until after Noah's son Ham had a son and named him Canaan.
So, if the people during Seth's time were already calling God "Yahweh", how can "Yahweh" be a man-made pagan small god among the Canaanite people?
Also, let's not forget that when Moses asked God, "Who shall I say sent me?", and God said, "Tell them I AM (a.k.a. YHWH) sent you"...and that "This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations" , "forever" and "all generations" didn't mean from the day of Moses forward. Forever means past, present and future.
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Christians like to say this is why Yahweh was constantly punish them, for their harlotry but real history doesn't see it this way. History sees it as the Hebrews gradually eliminating all the other gods and keeping Yahweh as their monotheistic god. This was long before the Bible was written. So naturally when Genesis 1:1 gets written the god referred to there is Yahweh, the Canaanite god.
So Jesus' father in the New Testament is a pagan Canaanite god. And if a pagan Canaanite god is in reality a false god according to Christianity then Jesus is a pagan deity just like Osiris, Zalmoxis, Romulus and Hercules. It's not Christianity's fault they have been praying to a pagan deity all these millennia. Civilization didn't have the tools back then to research and uncover this fact.
Fossil fuels are everywhere, there is a reason for that --- the asteroid that left a crater that spans 93 miles and 12 miles deep off the coast of Mexico destroyed all the dinosaurs globally. In order to have that theory fly, that had to reach for the sun and say that the sun was blocked due to the fallout. Good on you for the birds though. (which means the sun could not have been blocked if the birds survived) If I was on that side of the argument, I probably would have pulled that one too. However, it is a theory --- not a fact, but people will believe it as fact and Biblical oral traditions of history are fairy tales.
...
As a geology major with two degrees...thanks for the laugh this morning!
Yes, irrelevant arguments are missing in my response. And you are still ignoring the fact that this 3 hour darkness is only mentioned in Mark and 2 rewrites of Mark.
Cave men are irrelevant to the fact we know the gospels were most probably invented out of the OT, and texts such as Homer.
Except you are now posting irrelevant arguments, not engaging in an intellectual conversation.
More irrelevant arguments. Pharaohs and cave men are irrelevant to what we know about how the classically educate Roman citizens wrote texts.
Yep, the best way to try and shut someone down is to tell them they are engaging in irrelevant arguments. Would it sway you in understanding the book of Mark and the three hour (I'm taking your word for it that that was the length) darkness if Mathew, Luke and John had mentioned it as well. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are all of the same story, varied only through the authors words and recollection of what had been said and/or told to them.
You keep bringing up Homer and I brought up this researcher's work in a past post: Mark the Evangelist: His African memory I guess his work and research isn't enough for you? btw: of the era in which you speak of, Homer's work were of 'fragments' found and kept at the library of Alexandria --- the word there is 'fragments'. Even if (and that's a big if) Mark knew of Homer's work, there wouldn't be enough of it to lend any influence of his writing the oral accounts of events.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Except you are now posting irrelevant arguments, not engaging in an intellectual conversation.
I told you that I didn't have the time to do a deep dive and I also told you that the authors of the ancient text you keep referring to, I know at least two of them where of the Roman Empire's leadership team, that in itself gives me pause as to their agenda of their writings.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Pharaohs and cave men are irrelevant to what we know about how the classically educate Roman citizens wrote texts.
Except for the fact that everything comes from somewhere else in the evolution of time. If a person doesn't know where and the development of, then they will not understand why it is. The people below the leaders of the era were not educated in reading writing and arithmetic and yet, you probably don't see the importance of that. The only way your argument carries any weight is if you discount the social customs and culture of 10,000 years span, as well as, where the laws that ruled over them came from.
All the ancient text (including the Bible) were written in a language unfamiliar to us today --- if we knew that language, it would all read differently, I'm sure. We are reliant on scholars studies and their interpretation of the text to shape our ideas of our history and we can only hope, they didn't lie. (not any different than the era of people relying on the interpretation brought to them by their leaders of drawings in a cave)
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 12-11-2022 at 10:28 AM..
Reason: fix a link
Interesting. But here's the thing: Genesis 4:26 says, "To Seth, in turn, a son was born, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to invoke the LORD by name."
Canaan didn't even exist at the time of Seth. In fact, it wouldn't exist until after Noah's son Ham had a son and named him Canaan.
So, if the people during Seth's time were already calling God "Yahweh", how can "Yahweh" be a man-made pagan small god among the Canaanite people?
Also, let's not forget that when Moses asked God, "Who shall I say sent me?", and God said, "Tell them I AM (a.k.a. YHWH) sent you"...and that "This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations" , "forever" and "all generations" didn't mean from the day of Moses forward. Forever means past, present and future.
Not even close...
Of course Canaan existed before Seth. Seth is a mythical character just like Cain and Adam and Eve. All this was written long after the Israelites settled in their own territory in Palestine. You know, I hope that the Old Testament was officially written down in roughly 500 BCE after the Israelites returned from Babylon while the Canaanite culture dates from the 2nd Millennium BCE. There was never any Exodus to Israel from Egypt. Even Jewish scholars acknowledge the Exodus was all mythical--never happened. Michael Way, resident Biblical scholar par excellence around here readily admits most or all of Genesis is fable.
"The word Canaanites serves as an ethnic catch-all term covering various indigenous populations—both settled and nomadic-pastoral groups—throughout the regions of the southern Levant or Canaan. It is by far the most frequently used ethnic term in the Bible. Biblical scholar Mark Smith notes that archaeological data suggests "that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture... In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature."
You keep saying this like you're telling people something they don't already know. Along with the dwindling numbers in people of faith --- it is known and expected. In fact, it is how people of faith know (as they observe) which way the wind is blowing ... the handwriting is on the wall; those with the eyes to see will see.
You'd be astonished at the number of Christians who actually believe Jesus was real, Ellis. All the evidence that has been found--a small portion of it contained in these 10 books out of an estimated 100 and hundreds of websites on the topic of Jesus mythicism
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1. The Jesus Hoax: How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for Two Thousand Years by John G Jackson
2. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? by John W. Loftus
3. Jesus Never Existed: An Introduction to the Ultimate Heresy by Kenneth Humphreys
4. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient Biblical studies)
5. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All by David Fitzgerald
6. The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M Price (PhD in scriptural studies)
7. Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty
8. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R MacDonald
9. Deciphering the Gospels Proves Jesus Never Existed by RG Price
10. Jesus: Mything in Action Volumes I, II and III by David Fitzgerald
along with absolute proof that no historian of Jesus' time wrote a single word about him:
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Seneca the elder (54BC-39AD)
Important historian living during the time of Jesus' miracles and crucifixion and great earthquake and supernatural darkness that covered the entire Mediterranean area and zombies coming up out of their graves and going into Jerusalem and encountering no doubt a lot of Romans who were in Jerusalem as well as thousands of Jerusalem residents that these zombies supposedly appeared to according to Matthew.
FACT: Seneca doesn't mention a single word about Jesus or his crucifixion or all these supernatural events. Nada. Zilch.
Tiberius (42BC-37AD) Roman emperor during the time of Jesus. Can anyone seriously believe the Roman emperor would not have known of these things going on in his kingdom?
FACT: Tiberius doesn't make any mention of a Jesus Christ. Nada. Zilch.
5.Philo of Alexandria (20BC-50AD)
In 39 CE Philo was in Jerusalem where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words of Philo have survived. He offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and Moses more than a thousand times.
FACT: Philo makes no mention of Jesus or any of the events connected to his crucifixion. Nada. Zilch.
FACT: Seneca the Younger mentions NOTHING of Jesus. Nada. Zilch.
None of this evidence can convince the Christians the gospel Jesus was a religious contrivance to give the Christian religion largely founded by Constantine the emperor an avatar man-god to worship and call their own god.
Yep, the best way to try and shut someone down is to tell them they are engaging in irrelevant arguments.
Sorry, cave men and pharaohs did not write the gospels, educated Romans with a classical education did, so your arguments are irrelevant. You need to base your arguments on that, not what Ug, Ugg and King Tut used to do.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Would it sway you in understanding the book of Mark and the three hour (I'm taking your word for it that that was the length) darkness if Mathew, Luke and John had mentioned it as well. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are all of the same story, varied only through the authors words and recollection of what had been said and/or told to them.
Mathew and Luke DID mention it (Matthew 27:45 and Luke 23:44–45), because they are based on Mark. And if you run a plagiarism test on them, you can see they are NOT independent accounts, they are rewriting earlier the earlier gospels to replace them as THE go to gospel.
And do not take my word for it, do some simple Mathematics.
Mark 15:33 - And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
You keep bringing up Homer and I brought up this researcher's work in a past post: Mark the Evangelist: His African memory I guess his work and research isn't enough for you?
No, because there is NO evidence to place the unknown author of Mark anywhere. And the gospels were all given their unique titles around 150 - 170 AD, so there is no evidence who the authors of the gospels were, when a lot of Christian 'traditions and history' was invented.
And you are still ignoring the evidence that Mark is NOT based on oral stories AND the fact you can NEVER prove the alleged oral stories without the aid of a time machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
btw: of the era in which you speak of, Homer's work were of 'fragments' found and kept at the library of Alexandria --- the word there is 'fragments'.
Quatsch, 'fragments' is the wrong word. Homer was not only well known in the Roman world, it was also used as a teaching aid, especially how to create other texts based on original texts.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Even if (and that's a big if) Mark knew of Homer's work, there wouldn't be enough of it to lend any influence of his writing the oral accounts of events.
It is NOT a big if, the evidence is strong that Mark used not only the OT, but Homer as well. it is big if that the gospels are independent and based on oral accounts.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
I told you that I didn't have the time to do a deep dive ...
Considering your amusing error about Homer, that is obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
... and I also told you that the authors of the ancient text you keep referring to, I know at least two of them where of the Roman Empire's leadership team, that in itself gives me pause as to their agenda of their writings.
Ha, yes, the agenda argument. And what possible reason could Romans have for pretending a 3 hour darkness and zombies did not happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Except for the fact that everything comes from somewhere else in the evolution of time. If a person doesn't know where and the development of, then they will not understand why it is. The people below the leaders of the era were not educated in reading writing and arithmetic and yet, you probably don't see the importance of that. The only way your argument carries any weight is if you discount the social customs and culture of 10,000 years span, as well as, where the laws that ruled over them came from.
No, my arguments do not discount the social customs and culture of 10,000 years span, those customs are irrelevant to how the Romans wrote history and fiction. Once again, just because oral tradition exists, and has done for centuries does not mean the gospels must be based on oral tradition, especially considering the evidence is very strong that they did not.
All you are doing is pretending Animal Farm must be historical because, Ug, Ugg and King Tut did things differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
All the ancient text (including the Bible) were written in a language unfamiliar to us today --- if we knew that language, it would all read differently, I'm sure. We are reliant on scholars studies and their interpretation of the text to shape our ideas of our history and we can only hope, they didn't lie. (not any different than the era of people relying on the interpretation brought to them by their leaders of drawings in a cave)
Harry Diogenes has Greek grandparents and a Greek mother, and was also raised Orthodox Greek, reading the NT in it's original language. And we even know which version of the OT the gospel writers used, the Greek Septuagint.
And yes, reading the NT in it's original language does make one look at German and English translations differently.
Fossil fuels are everywhere, there is a reason for that --- the asteroid that left a crater that spans 93 miles and 12 miles deep off the coast of Mexico destroyed all the dinosaurs globally. In order to have that theory fly, that had to reach for the sun and say that the sun was blocked due to the fallout. Good on you for the birds though. (which means the sun could not have been blocked if the birds survived) If I was on that side of the argument, I probably would have pulled that one too. However, it is a theory --- not a fact, but people will believe it as fact and Biblical oral traditions of history are fairy tales.
Or you ...
I have no reason to doubt Mr. Lively and the school room class discussion on Newton's Laws of Motion in conjunction with earth's orbits around the sun from almost 50 years ago. I do have a reason to doubt scientist for political reason today, though.
It's a good thing then you can get my ideas on it from the post you just read.
You keep saying this like you're telling people something they don't already know. Along with the dwindling numbers in people of faith --- it is known and expected. In fact, it is how people of faith know (as they observe) which way the wind is blowing ... the handwriting is on the wall; those with the eyes to see will see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
You'd be astonished at the number of Christians who actually believe Jesus was real, Ellis. All the evidence that has been found--a small portion of it contained in these 10 books out of an estimated 100 and hundreds of websites on the topic of Jesus mythicism
along with absolute proof that no historian of Jesus' time wrote a single word about him:
None of this evidence can convince the Christians the gospel Jesus was a religious contrivance to give the Christian religion largely founded by Constantine the emperor an avatar man-god to worship and call their own god.
.
Take Christianity out of the equation --- what is left? If a person is not born of Jewish descent or Islam (640s a.d.) of that era, what is there for them within the first centuries of settlements and the laws they are subjected to? Constantine established freedom of religion, which was a first and those laws only survived the length of his reign. Abraham had Two Sons, and I'm sure that doesn't mean anything to you, but it should.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
You'd be astonished at the number of Christians who actually believe Jesus was real, Ellis.
Does is surprise you the of the numbers that denounce their faith? It doesn't me, as it is as it should be.
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Do you really want to suggest the kid below and millions like him simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get a university education and become ambassadors or something?
In order to have that theory fly, that had to reach for the sun and say that the sun was blocked due to the fallout. Good on you for the birds though. (which means the sun could not have been blocked if the birds survived) If I was on that side of the argument, I probably would have pulled that one too. However, it is a theory --- not a fact, but people will believe it as fact and Biblical oral traditions of history are fairy tales. 
