Eugene Debs on the Real Religion of Jesus (soul, church, atheist)
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I was kind of named after Eugene Debs. Debs = Deborah, my dad and brother sometimes call me Debs instead of Deb, or Debbie, or Deborah. (Being named after a man...yuck... jk)
Debs was a devoted Christian, but opposed organized religion as he thought the power structures of the Church were exploitative. He also was famously imprisoned in 1919 for telling young men to not follow the WWI military draft... Debs thought that war went against his views of "fraternity" and he thought that it was disproportionately the poorer classes that suffered as the business owners made profits during war...as a pacifist Quaker I can appreciate these thoughts of Debs on not having power structures within religion and opposing a draft.
He was also more famous for opposing private ownership of business (I am fine with people owning their own businesses...my father in law owns his own businesses btw). He thought that private ownership of businesses also led to exploitation of workers, which is why he opposed it.
Anyways, in December of 1914, Debs read in a newspaper that a prisoner in Michigan spent $2 (inflation adjusted is $52.05) on toys for disadvantaged children. I imagine that $52 was a not easy for someone locked up in a prison a century ago to come by and even harder to let go of. Debs then wrote to inmate 9756 (how dehumanizing is it that the newspaper used the prisoner's inmate number as opposed to his name...we must seek to rehabilitate and reform prisoners rather than seek humiliating retribution...anyways).
I do not know who you are but I have read your Christmas letter and I send you my greeting with my heart in it. You may be a convict, but you are my brother and when your message came to me I was touched to tears.
There is more to the real religion of Jesus Christ in the spirit you breathe out to the world from behind your cruel prison bars than in all of the orthodox sermons ever preached. You love the little children even as He loved them and you are in prison, while He was crucified. It is well that you are patient and forgiving. The world moves slowly. It may still be said: “They know not what they do.”
You had the misfortune to be born in a world not yet civilized. Jesus loved the erring into righteousness. His professed followers shut them out from God’s sunlight and torture them into degeneracy and crime. The erring did not make themselves. God made them. Let Him judge them.
The society that sent you to prison devours its own offspring. Thousands of little children are starved, stunted, and ground into dividends in the mills of mammon. It is the Christian society’s homeless, neglected babes to whom you, one of its condemned convicts, feel moved to send the pennies coined from your own blood and agony. What a sermon and what a rebuke!
If you ought to be in a penitentiary I know of not one who ought to be out.
Believe me with heart and hand, your brother and fellow-man,
Eugene V. Debs
The word "Mammon" that Debs uses comes from the New Testament and means wealth acquired from greed.
Really interesting concepts by Eugene Debs here. We see notions of "brotherhood" across lines of society. We see the need for love and service. We see the suffering and love of Jesus, which always gets me emotional. We also see the notion that society moves blindly and not in the best actions for the whole. Really thought provoking letter by Debs.
No matter our personal views, it is always important to think about such values and what values we have year round, but this time of year seems like a common time to do so.
Interesting connection in the story between material possessions, mammon , greed, & what is of greatest value to share .
Just yesterday I saw two of the most well behaved small children that I have known for some time and have never seen a cross word spoken between them , brother and sister, quite suddenly get into enraged , quite loud, dispute over a new Christmas toy.
It dawned on me that no one has to teach even a small small how to be greedy & covet & become enraged .
This value of sin is our natural inheritance of the flesh and can be seen naturally occurring in even the smallest child .
The only value that is able to overcome this naturally occurring darkness within us, is the value of Light we have in the forgiveness of sin provided by God in His Son Jesus Christ.
Only His light can cast out the darkness .
" But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave.." ( Psalm 49:15 )
As probably the only Quaker here, from what I know of the religion, a believe in a divinity is not necessary. Am I correct, or is that only for some off shoots? Thanks.
This is likely to be the only positive thread about Eugene Debs on a Christian forum in the history of internet forums.
Glad you shared it,
Thanks, I hope it isn't the only one!
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
That's known as the Social Gospel. It was a more common belief at that time.
That would be a good topic thread!
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad
As probably the only Quaker here, from what I know of the religion, a believe in a divinity is not necessary. Am I correct, or is that only for some off shoots? Thanks.
Generally speaking, we have the belief that you don't need belief in a divinity to be saved. God loves all.
Every Meeting House and every individual Quaker is a little different. Generally speaking there are meeting houses and individuals that are non-theist. I think there was an openly atheist Quaker meeting house in England somewhere, but other meeting houses nearby weren't fans. I know there was a meeting house that purposefully eliminated theism to make others feel comfortable in attending.
Generally speaking, we have the belief that you don't need belief in a divinity to be saved. God loves all.
Many a parent of a child who is currently sitting in a prison cell after committing some heinous crime continues to love their child, and love them with great passion, and always will .
Yet at the same time believe that they are being justly punished, and are right where they need to be .
The idea that love and the dispensing of justice cannot work in unison is a false theology
Many a parent of a child who is currently sitting in a prison cell after committing some heinous crime continues to love their child, and love them with great passion, and always will .
Yet at the same time believe that they are being justly punished, and are right where they need to be .
The idea that love and the dispensing of justice cannot work in unison is a false theology
The idea that not believing in the Christian god(s) merits eternal toasting is sadistic, psychotic theology.
Every Meeting House and every individual Quaker is a little different. Generally speaking there are meeting houses and individuals that are non-theist. I think there was an openly atheist Quaker meeting house in England somewhere, but other meeting houses nearby weren't fans. I know there was a meeting house that purposefully eliminated theism to make others feel comfortable in attending.
The idea that not believing in the Christian god(s) merits eternal toasting is sadistic, psychotic theology.
You still don't comprehend.
Just believing that God exists will not do anything for you.
Even the devil believes that God is real but that will not save him.
Amazing that someone can hang around a "Christian " forum for years and still remain clueless on the basic precepts
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jk)
