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Yes, questioning the quasi-religion of scientism does make atheism harder to sell.
One BELIEVES in a religion. One either UNDERSTANDS science or not. There is no belief system involved. Why did you not know that?
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We need to stop religion for practical reasons? What does that mean? What if theism, or some particular religion, or some combination of religions, are actually true? What if there actually is a God who is personally involved in the world and has expectations for his creatures? What if prayer actually works?
What could be more practical than attempting to understand the nature of ultimate reality and the way our world relates to it?
You mean like science has been advancing that understanding, using the scientific method. Do you know what that is? If not, I will gladly teach you.
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I always have a difficult time grasping the atheist vision. What would a purely atheistic world look like except human nature running amuck and a bunch of secular ideologies competing with each other, pretty much exactly as religions now do but without the restraining influence of religion?
What if I were to say "Think how great it would be if we could eliminate atheism and all other religions in favor of Christianity. Everyone would just love God and his neighbor as himself." What could be better than that? What could be more practical than that?
Atheists (and many others) would squawk, quite reasonably, "We're never going to go along with that because we don't think Christianity is TRUE!"
And so, I'm not silly enough to say anything like that even though it may be my fondest fantasy. But atheists say things like that all the time, as though atheism were self-evidently true. But it isn't self-evidently true, either in philosophical or scientific terms or in the hearts and minds of the vast majority of people who have ever lived.
Let me make it very simple. Atheism exists because atheists do not see any evidence of a god or gods, or any other supernatural entities, like Leprechauns or Faeries.
That's it. No more, no less. If you have evidence of a god or gods, tell us the method you used to determine that evidence to be true, and we all should be able to get the same result by using the same method. BTW, "faith" is not a method, it is a feeling.
One BELIEVES in a religion. One either UNDERSTANDS science or not. There is no belief system involved. Why did you not know that?
You mean like science has been advancing that understanding, using the scientific method. Do you know what that is? If not, I will gladly teach you.
Let me make it very simple. Atheism exists because atheists do not see any evidence of a god or gods, or any other supernatural entities, like Leprechauns or Faeries.
That's it. No more, no less. If you have evidence of a god or gods, tell us the method you used to determine that evidence to be true, and we all should be able to get the same result by using the same method. BTW, "faith" is not a method, it is a feeling.
SPOILER ALERT: That is, nevertheless, exactly where this movie is going to end up. You may be enticed with tales of "vast bodies" of evidence, bolstered by scientific scholarship, endorsed by world-class thinkers. But when push comes to shove, it all rides on faith:
Yes, it would be a paradigm shift for anyone to suddenly change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference.
and this gets to the center of discussions on what we are using to form out beliefs.
you say: Basically, are saying your loving creator to my pitiless indifference. Is why you can't change.
basically I am saying ... why I never believed ...
is that I have never seen or heard of a person I know, or any body else that was alive near my generation, say they saw a person rise from the dead. That scientist hasn't been able to do it out side a specific set of conditions.
That if three people claimed today a man walked on water, rose a man from the dead, and died, then rose three days later it would not hold up in any reasonable courts today.
do you see how we differ in forming our beliefs? Your was "loving creator" and mine was observations. And I was in a private catholic school in third grade when I saw it.
keep in mind iwas, I am easy. I say we are part of a larger more complex system. That if we are classified as life, how can we classify a more complex system as non life. I just say your deity is completely different than you say it is.
can't you have your warm and fuzzy feeling just saying you believe the universe is alive? And leave out this deity biblegod thing?
SPOILER ALERT: That is, nevertheless, exactly where this movie is going to end up. You may be enticed with tales of "vast bodies" of evidence, bolstered by scientific scholarship, endorsed by world-class thinkers. But when push comes to shove, it all rides on faith:
and this gets to the center of discussions on what we are using to form out beliefs.
you say: Basically, are saying your loving creator to my pitiless indifference. Is why you can't change.
basically I am saying ... why I never believed ...
is that I have never seen or heard of a person I know, or any body else that was alive near my generation, say they saw a person rise from the dead. That scientist hasn't been able to do it out side a specific set of conditions.
That if three people claimed today a man walked on water, rose a man from the dead, and died, then rose three days later it would not hold up in any reasonable courts today.
do you see how we differ in forming our beliefs? Your was "loving creator" and mine was observations. And I was in a private catholic school in third grade when I saw it.
keep in mind iwas, I am easy. I say we are part of a larger more complex system. That if we are classified as life, how can we classify a more complex system as non life. I just say your deity is completely different than you say it is.
can't you have your warm and fuzzy feeling just saying you believe the universe is alive? And leave out this deity biblegod thing?
My goal is the clearest view of reality I can have, not "warm and fuzzy feelings." What's your goal?
My goal is the clearest view of reality I can have, not "warm and fuzzy feelings." What's your goal?
I can only use what you post to see what you are saying. Look at how we both described the reality we think is real. In terms of my question to you. "You [Iwas] would find it suprising to find out a guy didn't die and rise from the dead?"
our responses:
1) you say: Basically, your loving creator to my pitiless indifference. Is why you would find it surprising to find a person didn't rise from the dead.
2) basically I am saying ... why I never believed ... is that I have never seen or heard of a person I know, or any body else that was alive near my generation, say they saw a person rise from the dead. That scientist hasn't been able to do it out side a specific set of conditions.
do you see how our clarity is different? make any changes or corrections to my interpretation that you feel is necessary.
I can only use what you post to see what you are saying. Look at how we both described the reality we think is real. In terms of my question to you. "You [Iwas] would find it suprising to find out a guy didn't die and rise from the dead?"
our responses:
1) you say: Basically, your loving creator to my pitiless indifference. Is why you would find it surprising to find a person didn't rise from the dead.
2) basically I am saying ... why I never believed ... is that I have never seen or heard of a person I know, or any body else that was alive near my generation, say they saw a person rise from the dead. That scientist hasn't been able to do it out side a specific set of conditions.
do you see how our clarity is different? make any changes or corrections to my interpretation that you feel is necessary.
No, I was asked if the realization that God did not exist would shock me. The answer is yes, and I gave reasons for that. Please don't paraphrase me when it's so easy to include my actual quote.
What I said was: "Yes, it would be a paradigm shift for anyone to suddenly change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference."
A sense of "shock" is not something that would deter me from evaluating other worldviews. I would adopt whatever worldview offered the greatest clarity of reality. For me, the worldview that aligns with reality is Christianity.
No, I was asked if the realization that God did not exist would shock me. The answer is yes, and I gave reasons for that. Please don't paraphrase me when it's so easy to include my actual quote.
What I said was: "Yes, it would be a paradigm shift for anyone to suddenly change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference."
A sense of "shock" is not something that would deter me from evaluating other worldviews. I would adopt whatever worldview offered the greatest clarity of reality. For me, the worldview that aligns with reality is Christianity.
yes, I also said to add or change anything I said. Just in case I got it wrong. Be that as it may ...
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
so you are telling me that finding out a guy didn't die and rise for our sins and didn't actually raise a man from the dead literally, you would be shocked?
you answered ...
Yes, it would be a paradigm shift for anyone to suddenly change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference.
It looks like you said "yes" you would be shocked to find a person didn't actually rise. then you included " ..change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference ..."
so let me reask it. And please just answer the question about the miracles and not god belief in general..
so, my direct question to you is; "would you be surprised (based on your first post I responded to) if you found out a person didn't rise from the dead literally?
yes, I also said to add or change anything I said. Just in case I got it wrong. Be that as it may ...
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
so you are telling me that finding out a guy didn't die and rise for our sins and didn't actually raise a man from the dead literally, you would be shocked?
you answered ...
Yes, it would be a paradigm shift for anyone to suddenly change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference.
It looks like you said "yes" you would be shocked to find a person didn't actually rise. then you included " ..change their worldview from one that includes a loving Creator to a meaningless worldview of pitiless indifference ..."
so let me reask it. And please just answer the question about the miracles and not god belief in general..
so, my direct question to you is; "would you be surprised (based on your first post I responded to) if you found out a person didn't rise from the dead literally?
You are referring to Jesus, so yes, I would be shocked if it were proven that He did not rise from the dead. That event is at the core of Christianity. If that event isn’t true then neither is Christianity.
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