Christians Cannot Defend What They Claim (America, Muslims, bible, quote)

[GalileoSmith]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

Christians are very vocal in making their claims. But when push comes to shove they become strangely quiet and touchy about defending those claims. And very hostile over the necessity of providing such a defence. It seems to me that any defence of Christian claims should provide Christians with a splendid platform for establishing the undeniable truth of their beliefs. Instead, any such exchange inevitably results in Christians lashing out at those who contradict them, and then disengaging from the discussion in a great display of indignation. Which, I am afraid, invariably makes them appear to be losers.

The core of Christian belief rests on the claim that a corpse came back to life and then subsequently flew away. This claim appears to be ridiculous to the point of being silly. If Christians really have unimpeachable evidence to support such an apparently ridiculous claim then they should be delighted to present it at every opportunity. And if an open examination of the presented evidence causes the "evidence" to fall completely apart, then perhaps it is Christians that should begin giving serious thought to what it is they think they believe.

Do Christians really have an unimpeachable case for their beliefs? Or is it simply a case of "It's all true because that's what I was raised to believe?" Which is the foundation of EVERY religious belief, whether currently in practice, or having long since fallen extinct.

It is called "faith". It is a faith based on what would otherwise be unrealistic beliefs. The Christian beliefs found a foothold about 2000 years ago and ever since they have been maintained generation after generation by way of childhood indoctrination practices. Before Christianity other religions found various levels of success among people since the dawn of mankind. All religious beliefs are in jeopardy of dismissal by the follower who lowers his or her psychological guard and exams their religion in an honest, objective manner.

[TRANSPONDER]

It's hard to do, I know. Don't I recall the shock and the lead in the stomach feeling when the T Rex soft tissue discovery broke. My God, how do we explain that? Behe's I/D gave us a run for our money, too (Poor old Anthony Flew got Taken)

So I sympathize that they can't come with us, very often, but the journey needs to be made, whether they can face it or not.

[Thoreau424]

Christians do not have to defend what they claim. The Bible is there to do all of that, and explain what needs explaining. People don't have to do squat.

Either believe the Bible or don't. It call comes down to that. This isn't up to people to resolve, defend, or explain. The scriptures of the Bible are the definitive origin and source. We can't expect people to always get it right, or even right part of that time, but that doesn't invalidate the source messages and teachings.

The premise of the thread is like having the Declaration of Independence, and then ignoring that document, and turning around and expecting people to verbalize and describe it instead. It doesn't work that way.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

They didn't "make it" because they're forgeries. Many of them weren't written until 200-300 AD.

In what sense are they forgeries?

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Acts was written pretty early on. The Gospels were recorded later on.

Acts of the apostles IIRC is dated around 80-90 AD, in the same general time frame as the gospels.

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Again....writing stuff down wasn't cheap or easy.

Not compared to today, and there were fewer literate people of course. But there was plenty of stuff written just the same, including by secular authorities, business people, accountants, and the like.

It is telling to me that the only history text of the era (Josephus -- Jewish Wars) to mention Jesus had to have some scribe committing a "pious fraud" by inserting a jarring and irrelevant paragraph about it. I think that guy must have invented the concept of a commercial "word from our sponsor".

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Weird how so many people willingly gave their lives because they saw Jesus after he had risen from the dead and believed him to be God.

Tens of millions died in WW2 ... weird how so many willingly and often heroically gave their lives on behalf of their countries.

Countless people have saved someone at the cost of their own lives. Often total strangers. Weird, that.

It would not be weird to you if you read the research on why people make personal sacrifices like that. Happens all the time. No gods needed. Ideology helps ... but it clearly doesn't have to be religious ideology.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

Christians do not have to defend what they claim. The Bible is there to do all of that, and explain what needs explaining. People don't have to do squat.

Either believe the Bible or don't. It call comes down to that. This isn't up to people to resolve, defend, or explain. The scriptures of the Bible are the definitive origin and source. We can't expect people to always get it right, or even right part of that time, but that doesn't invalidate the source messages and teachings.

The premise of the thread is like having the Declaration of Independence, and then ignoring that document, and turning around and expecting people to verbalize and describe it instead. It doesn't work that way.

Yes, that's right ... either believe the Bible or don't.

Of course -- most believe this or that bit of the Bible and dismiss the rest. Well, except when it's convenient NOT to dismiss it like, for instance, when they want to suddenly enforce laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy against one specific demographic group while ignoring all of the other laws in the same chapter.

It would be a much less stressful world if the Bible did not grant Christianity a clear mandate to make the entire world "disciples of Christ."

Far too many in this country aren't satisified with "just" believing in the Bible. They want everyone to obey it, as well -- even non-Christians and non-believers.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Weird how so many people willingly gave their lives because they saw Jesus after he had risen from the dead and believed him to be God.

Similar to mordant's point:

Weird how many Muslims have been giving their lives for Allah lately. Perhaps you should convert to Islam?

Weird how all of those people in the Heaven's Gate cult willingly committed suicide because of their belief that heaven existed on the Hale-Bopp comet that flew by earth as they killed themselves.

In fact, a lot of bizarro cults have wiped themselves out through suicide and terrorism -- because they believed in their own truths so strongly.

Which just goes to show you that giving up one's life for a belief does not make that belief valid.

Unless, of course, you'd rather drink some cyanide-laced Kool-Aid because Jimmy Jones had the right belief system, yes? No? I didn't think so.

People have died for all kinds of foolish reasons.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

....
The premise of the thread is like having the Declaration of Independence, and then ignoring that document, and turning around and expecting people to verbalize and describe it instead. It doesn't work that way.

More like ignoring the document and learning what it was about from newspaper and personal journal accounts of the time..... oh, wait....
THOSE do exist.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

How about you define what "impeachable evidence" is exactly?

I wouldn't know until I saw it.

However, what I find so irksome about religion is that it's adherents -- yes, that includes Christians -- assume that we only need evidence for the existence of a higher power for their entire religion, holy book, and moral values to be unimpeachably true.

Which is, I'm sure, why you brought up:

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my ancestor was a primate? No you can't but that seems to be the level of evidence that atheists demand to even consider if Christianity is true.

This is just more science-denying manure best left for the sanitation department to deal with -- not those who have decided to stop clinging to literal Biblical beliefs.

Yes, yes, all you have to do is disprove evolution and, suddenly, Christianity is proven to be 100% true. What makes this so nonsensical is that science-denying Christians seem to actually believe we atheists would be swayed by this -- as if we are completely oblivious as to how you went from "evolution is untrue" to "Christianity is true and Yahweh is the One True God" with nary a stop at any of the necessary points in between.

Somehow, bashing evolution proves Christianity and the Bible. Positively brilliant! (That noise you hear in the background is the spring in my sarcasm meter going: "Booiiiiiinnnnng!")

Yes, in fact, it can be proven that you were descended from lesser primates. You're not a direct descendent, but you originated from the same trunk. The evidence for this is positively overwhelming, but still you'll sit here and deny it because you just don't want to believe in it. Because evolution destroys your literal interpretation of the Bible; in fact, evolution pretty much destroys the entire premise behind Christianity.

So, hey, I can admit to being slightly -- slightly -- sympathetic as to why you'll trash evolution as if, by doing so, you're also trashing atheism.

However, you cannot criticize us for not believing the Bible, for which there is virtually no evidence regarding it's supernatural veracity, while simultaneously claiming evolution is untrue.

For, to claim evolution is untrue in light of all the scientific evidence to the contrary is the same thing as if we atheists stood before Yahweh himself and still refused to believe in his existence.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Futhermore, can you can prove ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt? Evidence for anything can easily be torn apart. Conspiracy theorists do it all the time.

*snicker* Conspiracy theorists? Hmm, that's not an example I would want to hang my hat upon if you know what I mean.

Sure, evidence for anything can be "easily" torn apart -- but that doesn't make any of it true. And truth -- what is real -- is the crux of this discussion.

Just last night a friend and I indulged in no end of hilarity as we watched YouTube videos posted by those who believe the earth is flat. Yep, all of the NASA photos are photoshopped, all the shuttle images are nothing but CGI movie effects, and all of the astronauts, cosmonauts, and spacefarers of other nationalities are all involved in this gigantic conspiracy to keep YOU from learning the truth.

See how easy it was for those morons to "tear apart" the evidence for a spherical earth? We're all "globeheads" after all, we dumbasses who actually believe the earth is a sphere. Hahaha! How stupid we all are! We should all rush on to YouTube right now to learn the truth about how the earth is flat!

Except, of course, for a number of obvious faults, like, for instance, PhotoShop didn't exist in the 1940's when the U.S. Air Force put a camera on a captured V-2 rocket, sent it into space, and saw the earth's curvature. Nope, no computers at all to create "CGI effects." Never mind the millions of people who work in not just the space industry but also all of those who work in the field of communications, GPS satellites, military satellites, the research and development of radar, and on and on -- and despite the millions of people in those industries, not a one has ever come forward and blown the whistle on the largest conspiracy of any kind in the history of humanity.

And despite it all, none of these flat earther morons could come up with even a single reason why it would be so important to cover-up the true shape of the earth. Why would this conspiracy exist in the first place? Yeah, no answer to THAT one.

I bring this all up, Jeff, so you have a firm grasp of the concept that not all "tearing apart" of evidence is equally true, equally valid, or equally intelligent. In fact, most conspiracies are just plain stupid. They're like little religious cults all their own complete with fanatacism and zealotry worthy of any religion; these people even get extraordinarily angry if you even suggest that they're wrong, flying off the handle by providing you with a litany of death threats, hate, name-calling, and vitriol that would make the most hardened Satanic sailor go crying to mommy.

Just because someone "tears apart" evidence for something doesn't mean it was truly torn apart. We atheists are well aware of that fact -- and even we can admit that not all arguments for atheism are necessarily good arguments. For instance, some atheists have used the argument that babies are born atheistic -- which we know to be a rather lame argument since babies are incapable of understanding abstract concepts like god, religion, and the afterlife.

Let us NOT delve into the utter lunacy of the "we can't prove anything" argument / meme. That's the kind of sophomoric philosophy you'll find being talked about around the dying keg at frat parties -- usually around 3:30am as the bonfire flickers and the last bit of seeds and resin are shaken out of the Zip-Lock baggy.

Yes, there are many things that can be proven beyond any respectful doubt. Unless you're going to admit to me, and everyone here, that you actually believe there is a chance that the earth is truly flat. And if you can believe THAT, then you can also believe in the possibility that your god doesn't exist and your religion is utterly wrong.

Except you don't ... do you. Of course not. You are convinced 100% that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that every letter contained therein is the absolute, unvarnished truth. So there you go ...

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I have over 100 evidences that give me strong faith that I serve the one true God. It's the sum of evidences that is convincing, not one single smoking gun evidence.

And I'll be blunt about this -- I simply don't believe you.

Oh, I believe that you've had whatever experiences you had to make you believe in these 100 pieces of evidence. I believe that YOU believe that the causation of these events was Yahweh, Wargod of the Hebrews. But I don't believe that you can provide any true linkage to Yahweh, the Bible, or to Christianity as a whole.

IF you truly had over 100 pieces of evidence that you "serve the One True God," you would not only be slathering the forums with each and every one of them, you would be in Norway right now accepting your Nobel Prize. You would be famous, touring the world giving lectures at all the great universities and religious institutions explaining how you can tell that Yahweh, god of the Bible exists.

I wouldn't be at all rocked on my heels if someone were to finally provide actual evidence for the existence of a higher power. But I'll blow my nose and eat the results once a week for the rest of my life if ANYONE EVER comes up with evidence that Yahweh, the specific God of the Bible exists.

And no, the usual, "I saw Jesus in a vision" nonsense doesn't make the cut -- especially since people somehow always see Jesus as appearing just like the Aryanized, Catholic version of Jesus.

Also, evidence like, "I needed money to pay my mortgage and some dude handed me the exact amount I needed while I was waiting for the bus" is even less credible to me. There's nothing supernatural or miraculous about those kinds of miracles -- even if I believed the story in the first place. Nor does the "my grandmother's cancer mysteriously vanished" evidence hold much water. While, perhaps ... perhaps ... there was a supernatural component to this miracle, nothing whatsoever links it to your God or your Bible except the fact that you want them to be linked. Unless you can build an adequate bridge between the vanishing cancer and Yahweh, all you have is an unexplained mystery, NOT evidence for the existence of the Biblegod.

Hopefully you can see the difference between a credible "tearing apart" of evidence and just plain stupid "tearing apart" of evidence. Conspiracy theorists are almost unilaterally on the "just plain stupid" side of the equation.

[kevxu]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

Christians are very vocal in making their claims. But when push comes to shove they become strangely quiet and touchy about defending those claims. And very hostile over the necessity of providing such a defence. It seems to me that any defence of Christian claims should provide Christians with a splendid platform for establishing the undeniable truth of their beliefs. Instead, any such exchange inevitably results in Christians lashing out at those who contradict them, and then disengaging from the discussion in a great display of indignation. ....

This does not apply to all the Christians I have met or lived among, but has increasing become the case in my lifetime it seems. In this respect Christians and Muslims are very, very much alike; as they are alike in accepting the bizarre and often sadistic laws of ancient primitive desert tribes as admirable instead of repugnant. And they share an urgent desire to impose their religions over others and on others.

I was a Christian, but have not been for many decades. I follow another way, and avoid Christian and Muslim religious zealots as much as possible. Other than being very watchful that these groups do not achieve political power, why bother them or with them?

[hljc]

God tells me that my parents who were Christian and other people who were Christian who have passed away are not in their grave were they were buried as only their earthly remains are there , these people are in bliss with God now ....... So if people say that is not true than my words and the fact that God told me this means, there is no honor from the deniers of God ..... I follow Jesus Christ who is the first born from the dead and my soul will never die ......