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Why would your Jesus have to die to absolve you from rules that never applied to you anyway??
I think Jeff's actual claim is that the rule applies but has been satisfied on his behalf. If that substitutionary atonement hadn't occurred, he'd still be guilty. That is WHY Jesus allegedly had to die in the first place -- because of those rules initially existing.
That leaves the problem of how substitutionary atonement would work. Presumably, (1) someone -- Jesus in this case -- offers to suffer the penalty on your behalf and (2) the judge -- God the father in this case -- agrees to accept that in lieu of your own punishment.
All well and good, except that it's a made up dogma about a made up problem.
That's the REAL issue here. God himself, and sin, are asserted theological concepts that are whatever someone claims them to be -- be the claimant Jeff, or any other Christian believer. In Jeff's case, he'd say, I'm sure, that sin is what the Bible claims it is ... but that's just kicking the can down the road, and, it's usually quite subjective in the particulars.
But the way I see it is, if you take out different moral codes and make allowances for different developments of society and their moral codes (as we get with the arts) the similarities are often striking.
First of all, so what if love is a chemical reaction in the brain. Does that make the feeling any less real? Does that invalidate love for some inexplicable reason?
Sad that you feel the need to insult my intelligence, but typical. And PATHETIC that you have to rely on such crutches.
If love is only a chemical reaction then you pretty much equated it on the same level as eating chocolate. Maybe it's just me, but that kinda cheapens it. Honey, I love and adore you just like I do this snickers bar.
Hence the flaws of atheist. Love is a intangible thing, but you have to desperately come up with a tangible physical explanation for it in your fantasy world. The same fantasy world where kind good loving Christian people are scum of the earth and insulting, arrogant and rude atheists are the only true moral people. Fantasy world.
That's all I have time for you during the holidays. I'm not going to waste my holiday replying to the rest of your venomous garbage.
Sad that you feel the need to insult my intelligence, but typical. And PATHETIC that you have to rely on such crutches.
If love is only a chemical reaction then you pretty much equated it on the same level as eating chocolate. Maybe it's just me, but that kinda cheapens it. Honey, I love and adore you just like I do this snickers bar.
Hence the flaws of atheist. Love is a intangible thing, but you have to desperately come up with a tangible physical explanation for it in your fantasy world. The same fantasy world where kind good loving Christian people are scum of the earth and insulting, arrogant and rude atheists are the only true moral people. Fantasy world.
That's all I have time for you during the holidays. I'm not going to waste my holiday replying to the rest of your venomous garbage.
I get exacly where you are coming from, Jeff, but you are wrong. What you are going is mytholygszing the way pur body and mind works. It is easy to get carried away by a love of the beauty of nature, or the magnificence of the universe or the sweep of a magnificent piece of music or a thwe thrill of a sex partner or the delight of a snickers bar. These are all chemichal reactions when it comes down to it, but to dismiss it because of what ot can prduce is the same mistake Creationists make when they dismiss all the diverity of animal and plant life as 'just coming from lumps of protoplasm.
Yes, that's what it is at base, but it's more than that, just as we are animals, but more than that. You are not alone in thinking that there has to be Something More doing it, and maybe there is, but that can't be an intelligent invisible being doing any of it or nature, incredible though it is, could hardly be flawed as it is. Nor the human capacity of love be so prone to going badly wrong as it often does.
I get exacly where you are coming from, Jeff, but you are wrong. What you are going is mytholygszing the way pur body and mind works. It is easy to get carried away by a love of the beauty of nature, or the magnificence of the universe or the sweep of a magnificent piece of music or a thwe thrill of a sex partner or the delight of a snickers bar. These are all chemichal reactions when it comes down to it, but to dismiss it because of what ot can prduce is the same mistake Creationists make when they dismiss all the diverity of animal and plant life as 'just coming from lumps of protoplasm.
Yes, that's what it is at base, but it's more than that, just as we are animals, but more than that. You are not alone in thinking that there has to be Something More doing it, and maybe there is, but that can't be an intelligent invisible being doing any of it or nature, incredible though it is, could hardly be flawed as it is. Nor the human capacity of love be so prone to going badly wrong as it often does.
What can be remarkable about love is something that is not natural at all. Over the tens of thousands of years has come a change in some humans. It is perfectly natural to love one's own family or "tribe" if you will, but it is remarkable when some of us idiotic liberals are willing to pay higher taxes for the benefit of those in our society who may not have our same resources.
The Biblical Greek has three words for love. EROS for sexual love, PHILLIA for deep friendship, and AGAPE that was their word for loving others in a selfless manner.
------------------
The Lancaster, PA Amish demonstrated that kind of love a decade ago when a man shot ten of their schoolchildren:
In the midst of their grief over this shocking loss, the Amish community didn’t cast blame, they didn’t point fingers, they didn’t hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer’s family.
The afternoon of the shooting an Amish grandfather of one of the girls who was killed expressed forgiveness toward the killer, Charles Roberts. That same day Amish neighbors visited the Roberts family to comfort them in their sorrow and pain.
Later that week the Roberts family was invited to the funeral of one of the Amish girls who had been killed. And Amish mourners outnumbered the non-Amish at Charles Roberts’ funeral.
It’s ironic that the killer was tormented for nine years by the pre-mature death of his young daughter. He never forgave God for her death. Yet, after he cold-bloodedly shot 10 innocent Amish school girls, the Amish almost immediately forgave him and showed compassion toward his family.
In a world at war and in a society that often points fingers and blames others, this reaction was unheard of. Many reporters and interested followers of the story asked, “How could they forgive such a terrible, unprovoked act of violence against innocent lives?”
What Does the Bible Say About Forgiveness?
The Amish culture closely follows the teachings of Jesus, who taught his followers to forgive one another, to place the needs of others before themselves, and to rest in the knowledge that God is still in control and can bring good out of any situation. Love and compassion toward others is to be life’s theme. Vengeance and revenge is to be left to God.
------------
LancasterPA.com
The point is that nothing in our evolutionary record has moved us along a trail of mercy to our perceived enemies-----and America is and always has been about retribution. It takes remarkable agape love to reach out to one's enemies or those who have harmed our own, even the families of those who have harmed us. But it happens. When it does it is always considered remarkable by the media. I'm not stating that an atheist wouldn't ever do such things, I'm only stating that my own knowledge of such agape love has been limited to people of faith.
The most potent aspect of agape love is that it is withheld from no one, nor for any reason. The bankruptcy of evangelicals is that they left those principles decades ago and have become pagan in their responses, having forgotten the agape love of the One they claim to follow.
It's very sad for someone my age to know when things were different among many, not all, evangelicals. Today they are all exact twins of one another.
The point is that nothing in our evolutionary record has moved us along a trail of mercy to our perceived enemies-----and America is and always has been about retribution. It takes remarkable agape love to reach out to one's enemies or those who have harmed our own, even the families of those who have harmed us. But it happens. When it does it is always considered remarkable by the media. I'm not stating that an atheist wouldn't ever do such things, I'm only stating that my own knowledge of such agape love has been limited to people of faith.
The most potent aspect of agape love is that it is withheld from no one, nor for any reason. The bankruptcy of evangelicals is that they left those principles decades ago and have become pagan in their responses, having forgotten the agape love of the One they claim to follow.
It's very sad for someone my age to know when things were different among many, not all, evangelicals. Today they are all exact twins of one another.
This is a good post. After reading responses from a few Christians who view themselves closest to Jesus, I believe their response would be that good works do not get you to heaven. Professing your love for Jesus and sharing the "good news" with others who are not in the faith is what ultimately gets you to heaven. It is a reward system.
So what is a possible effect of this belief system? There is no need to behave like the Amish as long as you profess your love for Jesus and let others know about him. If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected on this.
What can be remarkable about love is something that is not natural at all. Over the tens of thousands of years has come a change in some humans. It is perfectly natural to love one's own family or "tribe" if you will, but it is remarkable when some of us idiotic liberals are willing to pay higher taxes for the benefit of those in our society who may not have our same resources.
The Biblical Greek has three words for love. EROS for sexual love, PHILLIA for deep friendship, and AGAPE that was their word for loving others in a selfless manner.
------------------
The Lancaster, PA Amish demonstrated that kind of love a decade ago when a man shot ten of their schoolchildren:
In the midst of their grief over this shocking loss, the Amish community didn’t cast blame, they didn’t point fingers, they didn’t hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer’s family.
The afternoon of the shooting an Amish grandfather of one of the girls who was killed expressed forgiveness toward the killer, Charles Roberts. That same day Amish neighbors visited the Roberts family to comfort them in their sorrow and pain.
Later that week the Roberts family was invited to the funeral of one of the Amish girls who had been killed. And Amish mourners outnumbered the non-Amish at Charles Roberts’ funeral.
It’s ironic that the killer was tormented for nine years by the pre-mature death of his young daughter. He never forgave God for her death. Yet, after he cold-bloodedly shot 10 innocent Amish school girls, the Amish almost immediately forgave him and showed compassion toward his family.
In a world at war and in a society that often points fingers and blames others, this reaction was unheard of. Many reporters and interested followers of the story asked, “How could they forgive such a terrible, unprovoked act of violence against innocent lives?”
What Does the Bible Say About Forgiveness?
The Amish culture closely follows the teachings of Jesus, who taught his followers to forgive one another, to place the needs of others before themselves, and to rest in the knowledge that God is still in control and can bring good out of any situation. Love and compassion toward others is to be life’s theme. Vengeance and revenge is to be left to God.
------------
LancasterPA.com
The point is that nothing in our evolutionary record has moved us along a trail of mercy to our perceived enemies-----and America is and always has been about retribution. It takes remarkable agape love to reach out to one's enemies or those who have harmed our own, even the families of those who have harmed us. But it happens. When it does it is always considered remarkable by the media. I'm not stating that an atheist wouldn't ever do such things, I'm only stating that my own knowledge of such agape love has been limited to people of faith.
The most potent aspect of agape love is that it is withheld from no one, nor for any reason. The bankruptcy of evangelicals is that they left those principles decades ago and have become pagan in their responses, having forgotten the agape love of the One they claim to follow.
It's very sad for someone my age to know when things were different among many, not all, evangelicals. Today they are all exact twins of one another.
Yes. It is one of those things that that religion does, and I'm not at all sure that it is a healthy thing. It strikes me a mix of coals of fire (making your unbelieving enemies look bad) the martyrdom act, and a way of tightening the insularity bonds - "See? That's what those wrong believers do - we should shut them out".
Forgiveness - as has been observed - is an often beautiful alternative to justice, but it is not justice.
Don't we rather see the trick in that Q document prayer (Luke 11.2 and Matthew and Matthew 7.11) "Forgive us (God) our sins as we forgive those who are indebted to us". It's a variant of the Sacrifice instinct (1) . Giving up the right to feeling a grudge is a sacrifice that will earn one treasure in heaven. I'd say that giving up money is always better, but I'm likely to be told that I'm being cynical quite enough
(1) whether it is sacrificing valuable animals, or your children or your sexuality.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-24-2017 at 09:10 AM..
This is a good post. After reading responses from a few Christians who view themselves closest to Jesus, I believe their response would be that good works do not get you to heaven. Professing your love for Jesus and sharing the "good news" with others who are not in the faith is what ultimately gets you to heaven. It is a reward system.
So what is a possible effect of this belief system? There is no need to behave like the Amish as long as you profess your love for Jesus and let others know about him. If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected on this.
Nice point. This in fact is one of the tricky ones that religious apologists skip over (1) and most unbelievers don't think to ask it. It was a problem from the first - Paul created the problem. In his argument (Romans (2) that only Faith in Jesus as messiah could save you (the Laws of Moses couldn't) he supposed that this faith would somehow make us 'dead to sin', and thus we would not sin. But by Corinthians, he had found out that his converts were behaving worse than pagans. Instead of realizing that his theory had collapsed, he tried to patch it up by appeals to behave decently or...wait for it....sinning could lose them grace. This is the Big Dirty Secret of Theology. The elephant in the room they all pretend not to see. True, Good works alone won't get you Saved, and once saved, always saved. But you can lose that salvation by doing wrong. Works don't save, but they count.
(1) like "Does one go straight to Judgement when we die, or do we "Sleep" until the Last trump awakens all to Judgement?"
(2) despite a lot of Authorities putting Romans later (presumably based on the stated intention of Paul to go to Rome) Romans clearly is Paul's Thesis, setting out - in fact developing - his argument. The letters thereafter form a coherent chronological sequence. Finding it all going wrong, coming up against the Real apostles, later forgeries.
This is a good post. After reading responses from a few Christians who view themselves closest to Jesus, I believe their response would be that good works do not get you to heaven. Professing your love for Jesus and sharing the "good news" with others who are not in the faith is what ultimately gets you to heaven. It is a reward system.
So what is a possible effect of this belief system? There is no need to behave like the Amish as long as you profess your love for Jesus and let others know about him. If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected on this.
Good works do not get one to "heaven," assuming such exists. Good works for the Christian come from gratitude for the love they have received from God. They are acts of "passing it forward."
I don't worry about heaven or hell. To be rescued spiritually is quite enough. If I spend my time making sure my "ticket is punched" to get to heaven, then that becomes a kind of quid pro quo. The joy of doing for others is reward enough.
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...sinning could lose them grace. This is the Big Dirty Secret of Theology. The elephant in the room they all pretend not to see. True, Good works alone won't get you Saved, and once saved, always saved. But you can lose that salvation by doing wrong. Works don't save, but they count. 