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I think BF thinks you're not worshiping Jesus correctly. That is what it ultimately comes down to for fundamentalists on any topic: you're not doing it right. And fully deconstructed: You're not doing it our way.
Oh, I think it goes further than that. I suspect he thinks we're worshiping an entire different Jesus from the one he's worshiping. I wasn't aware that there were two of them, but my guess is that's what he'd say.
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That said, I can understand why if someone feels you engage in heresy such as violating sola scriptura that it doesn't matter what else you do. They can simply dismiss your worship of Jesus as an insincere ruse. They shouldn't, but can and do. Why? Because there are certain key signifiers of group belonging and you've violated one or more of them, therefore you don't fit the pattern. There are after all verses in the Bible about false brothers and such.
The odd thing is that every time a specific "heresy" is mentioned is mentioned, it also excludes Christians other than Mormons. For example, Catholics don't accept sola scriptura any more than Mormons do. They may not have an additional volume of scripture, but much of their religion is based on "holy tradition" -- things the Bible never mentions.
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So we could say that while technically by one argument worshiping Christ = Christian, some groups will have a more extensive and detailed list of requirements beyond that. Fundamentalists will deny it, but they worship the Bible, not just Jesus. God must be "the God of the Bible". Both must be exclusive and substituting anything else for either is sacrilege.
Worshiping the Bible does seem to be a hallmark of fundamentalist Christians.
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Other groups will have circular reasoning deployed. Catholics for example will see engaging in the sacraments, particularly communion and baptism, as very important. To a Catholic however you need a Catholic priest to administer those sacraments, so how would one partake as a Mormon?
Is this a hypothetical question or a real one?
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What I am getting at is signifiers of group membership for significant numbers of Christians, are not a sufficient pattern match to Mormonism. I'm not arguing it should be so, just that it is. Mormonism is a pattern match for Christians who aren't very attached to their own customs and conventions as the Only Way To God (tm) and they would be happy with your veneration of Christ as the sole requirement to share the general label Christian. More tribal types will have some degree of malfunction with it however.
I think you're right. It's unfortunate that Jesus' most important message was lost on them.
May be drifting off -topic, but I recall that Chistian Buddhism (or Christianty -rebirth) was quite popular at one time, and you still see it about.
How does it work? Jesus to get you doing good deeds and good deeds getting you top of the range rebirth?
To me it's just about taking wise teachings wherever they came from. Buddha...lots of wise teachings. Christ...lots of wise teachings. Nothing -- for me -- had to do with any "movement" or "sect". Just me putting things together.
To me it's just about taking wise teachings wherever they came from. Buddha...lots of wise teachings. Christ...lots of wise teachings.
That's interesting. It reminded me of several things Brigham Young taught. These come from several different sermons:
Be willing to receive the truth, let it come from whom it may; no difference, not a particle. If God has called an individual and sent him to preach the Gospel that is enough for me to know; it is no matter who it is, all I want is to know the truth.
Mormonism... embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to Mormonism. The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. Mormonism includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the Gospel.
I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it.
It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church... to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion.
Our religion measures, weighs, and circumscribes all the wisdom in the world—all that God has ever revealed to man. God has revealed all the truth that is now in the possession of the world, whether it be scientific or religious. The whole world are under obligation to him for what they know and enjoy; they are indebted to him for it all, and I acknowledge him in all things.
Our religion... embraces all truth, wherever found, in all the works of God and man that are visible or invisible to mortal eye.
Oh, I think it goes further than that. I suspect he thinks we're worshiping an entire different Jesus from the one he's worshiping. I wasn't aware that there were two of them, but my guess is that's what he'd say.
Well they do suggest that any concept of Christ that is different enough would be a "counterfeit Christ", yes. If you describe Jesus differently enough or if Jesus is claimed to relate to you in a different enough way that is outside their experience then that would be a red flag to them.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
The odd thing is that every time a specific "heresy" is mentioned is mentioned, it also excludes Christians other than Mormons. For example, Catholics don't accept sola scriptura any more than Mormons do. They may not have an additional volume of scripture, but much of their religion is based on "holy tradition" -- things the Bible never mentions.
I don't think a charge of violating sola scriptura is generally activated unless you are pointing to another book, not merely another source of authority. I know for a fact that fundamentalists DO have an issue with RC church authority regarding traditions and papal decrees and such being on an equal or near-equal footing with scripture, but somehow having actual extra holy books out there is overt and deliberate heresy whereas church authority is regarded as more of an unconscious drifting off the rails. Here again, I'm simply relating it as I generally experienced it, not justifying it.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Is this a hypothetical question or a real one?
It was the hypothetical I would envision a Catholic putting out. To them the Catholic Church is the vehicle for delivering the sacraments so some Catholics would be primed to see it as impossible to not BE a Catholic and claim to take the sacraments. To my knowledge a Catholic lay person, even a pious one, can't administer last rites, baptism, or communion even in the absence of an assigned / available priest. Mush less someone outside the religion or in a different religion. I don't know how Catholics resolve such issues in between their ears, but I'd be unsurprised to find that significant numbers see even Protestants, much less Mormons, as lacking the machinery to deliver much of what the church is supposed to deliver.
Well they do suggest that any concept of Christ that is different enough would be a "counterfeit Christ", yes. If you describe Jesus differently enough or if Jesus is claimed to relate to you in a different enough way that is outside their experience then that would be a red flag to them.
I don't think a charge of violating sola scriptura is generally activated unless you are pointing to another book, not merely another source of authority. I know for a fact that fundamentalists DO have an issue with RC church authority regarding traditions and papal decrees and such being on an equal or near-equal footing with scripture, but somehow having actual extra holy books out there is overt and deliberate heresy whereas church authority is regarded as more of an unconscious drifting off the rails. Here again, I'm simply relating it as I generally experienced it, not justifying it.
It was the hypothetical I would envision a Catholic putting out. To them the Catholic Church is the vehicle for delivering the sacraments so some Catholics would be primed to see it as impossible to not BE a Catholic and claim to take the sacraments. To my knowledge a Catholic lay person, even a pious one, can't administer last rites, baptism, or communion even in the absence of an assigned / available priest. Mush less someone outside the religion or in a different religion. I don't know how Catholics resolve such issues in between their ears, but I'd be unsurprised to find that significant numbers see even Protestants, much less Mormons, as lacking the machinery to deliver much of what the church is supposed to deliver.
fundies have a problem with anybody that doesn't push forth a belief statement over knowledge claim as a base to a line of logic. hey, kinda .... just like you do. lmao ex fundies have no idea that milli/fundy is a personality defect not a belief statement. formed from abuse, addiction, or just plain born mental.
That's interesting. It reminded me of several things Brigham Young taught. These come from several different sermons:
Be willing to receive the truth, let it come from whom it may; no difference, not a particle. If God has called an individual and sent him to preach the Gospel that is enough for me to know; it is no matter who it is, all I want is to know the truth.
Mormonism... embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to Mormonism. The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. Mormonism includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the Gospel.
I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it.
It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church... to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion.
Our religion measures, weighs, and circumscribes all the wisdom in the world—all that God has ever revealed to man. God has revealed all the truth that is now in the possession of the world, whether it be scientific or religious. The whole world are under obligation to him for what they know and enjoy; they are indebted to him for it all, and I acknowledge him in all things.
Our religion... embraces all truth, wherever found, in all the works of God and man that are visible or invisible to mortal eye.
Okay, EXCEPT that I don't think wisdom pertains to magic.
Me neither. But Brigham Young said nothing about magic.
He probably means that he removes all the supernatural elements out of what people purport and use as wisdom. He equates all supernatural elements with the idea of indescribable supernatural processes (which the vague label of "magic" could of course apply to).
I myself try to find wisdom in the context and subjectivity; rather than vague, supposedly all-applying platitudes and aphorisms.
Mind you, there are some things that are just purely descriptive/indicative rather than directly imperative/deontic:
"Life is short, expertise is slow, opportunity is fleeting, experience is deceptive, and good judgment is difficult."
~ Hippocrates (Horsepower) in his work, Aphorisms.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 10-07-2017 at 08:12 PM..
fundies have a problem with anybody that doesn't push forth a belief statement over knowledge claim as a base to a line of logic. hey, kinda .... just like you do. lmao ex fundies have no idea that milli/fundy is a personality defect not a belief statement. formed from abuse, addiction, or just plain born mental.
If you could teach Fundies the design and pattern of the Temple they would stop being Fundies, If you could teach Christians the 7 feasts of Christ and what all the scriptures of hell meant through those 7 feasts, you could heal a Fundi.
A Fundi is only a Fundi because he doesn't recognize the ways of Christ, the worship system of Christ, and the missions of Christ.
If you could convince the Fundies to study the 7 feasts of Christ and accept Christ and his worship system, there wouldn't be any Fundies.
Fundies have one thing in common, and this is that every single one of them is against the ways of the Jewish Messiah, every one denies Christ as much as any Atheist and worse than that, they fight the ways of Jesus from the inside.
You teach them to JUST ACCEPT THE BELIEF AND RELIGION OF JESUS, and they quit being Fundies.
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