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Why, do you not claim to be pre-ordained and chosen? That seems to be a special privilege...since there are very few mortals that could ever clam such--the last one being Christ...
Don't misunderstand his his post - he was not saing that he doesn't claim a special privilege for himself as a Christian (though I think he does) but I (or we) said that the response to his moan that we are constantly taking issue with religion in general and Christianity in particular is that there is no good reason why we shouldn't as religion actually has no privilege in the R/S forum, though it does in the Christianity forum -and atheism does in A/A.
In Christianity forum no - one is supposed to tell a self -identified Christian that he is not a Christian. It isn't that atheists got banned from posting arguments against Christianity (though the believers tried to ban us ) and in A/A, time wasting preaching and evangelism is banned - but not posting arguments against atheism - though theists often claim that it is.
Human society has a way of weeding out bad ideas, and I'm glad to see that fundamentalist religious belief and low-information voting are on their way out in the U.S.
Unfortunately, I can't really say that I can agree with this particular statement. I honestly feel that the United States has, perhaps, one of the dumbest electorates in the democratic world. Most people simply stick their heads inside of an echo chamber and listen to their own opinions bounce around -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing if those opinions have a solid footing on facts and reality.
But keep in mind that never before have we come so close to having a true theocratic pro-genocidal Christian fascist obtain the nomination for president (Ted Cruz). In addition, I should point out that, as a historian who has been studying Nazi Germany and the Third Reich for 20+ years now, I can tell you with the utmost confidence that Donald Trump's election mirrored almost perfectly the rise of the Nazi party and Hitler's election into the position of chancellor.
This entire election smacked of religion, desperation, fear, mistrust, and low information voting. It was the ability to rally the ignorant, the desperate, the fearful, the uneducated, the frustrated, and the misinformed with pie-in-the-sky fantasies of bygone days of greatness ... let's make America great again, words used verbatim by Hitler, substituting "America" with "Germany," of course.
The internet, instead of making Americans more well-rounded and informed about the political arena, has allowed many people to retreat into their own little enclaves, their own political mutual admiration societies where every negative thing said about the opposing side becomes pure unadulterated fact no matter how stupid, hyperbolic, or obviously untrue it is.
Thus, as a staunch liberal and democrat, I've had to sit here for the last 8 years and listen to some of the most ridiculous whoppers that Republicans swear up and down were true -- and some STILL believe are true. Some examples include:
Obama is a Muslim
Obama is literally the founder of ISIS
Obama observes Ramadan because he wasn't wearing his wedding ring during the last Ramadan holiday
Liberals want to ban all gun ownership and repeal the 2nd Amendment
Obama spent $200 million per day on his trip to India
Obama passed a law that would allow census takers to literally break into your apartment when you weren't home
Obama's uncle didn't *really* liberate a concentration camp during WWII because it was his "great" uncle that liberated a camp thus Obama is a liar
Obama was born in Kenya -- in a city that wasn't even a part of Kenya at the time of his birth
"Obama is the worst president in American history!!" (Oh really? And he was worse than Millard Fillmore how, exactly?)
And my personal favorite was how Republicans all over the country were suddenly and inexplicably finding themselves waiting in the grocery line behind a person with a cart full of steak and lobster, talking on a tricked-out cellphone, wearing designer jeans, with Air Jordans on her feet, but paying for her food with food stamps, then loading up her groceries into a brand new Cadillac Escalade. Yeah, even the make and model car was always the same. Imagine that.
What's odd where I live is how one can almost barely tell the difference between God and Trump which, to me, fairly brings a bit of bile to the edge of my throat just thinking about it.
For instance, someone on the periphery of my life owns a canoe rental business. I saw him at the local grocery store and, much to my dismay, he started talking to me (*heavy sigh*). Like the vast majority of people around here, he's a die-hard conservative Christian Republican (which is why I belong here about as much as a snowball belongs in a pizza oven). I asked him how his business went last summer and he responded with this gem:
"Oh business was slow because of the heat," he trumpeted. He was naturally boisterous. "No one wanted to get out there on the river with the sun beating down on them. But now that Trump got elected, business will be great this coming summer."
All I could do was stare at him and blink a couple of times. I mean, I was truly gobsmacked at the utter stupidity of what I just heard. I had to replay those sentences in my mind several times just to make sure I had heard him correctly because ... surely even a person in this rural backwater filled with half-educated buffoons couldn't be THAT moronic ... could he?
Is Trump going to control the weather now? Or is Trump's presidency going to put everyone into such a joyful euphoric state that no one will even notice that G-class star 93 million miles away searing their skin on a very hot summer day? It's almost as if Canoe Man is somehow projecting godlike powers to Trump by granting Mr. Tweetaholic weather control, emotion control ... or that Mr. Canoe Man actually believes that simply by virtue of Trump being in the Oval Office, all of these dead factories littering the Allegheny Valley will magically spring to life again. Woohoo! It'll be like the 1950's all over again when Dad could buy a house, two cars and raise 3 kids on a factory worker's salary with just a high school diploma! All praise Trump!
Honestly, I sometimes think the reason why religion has been so quiet lately is because all of the worship has been directed toward our Narcissist-in-Chief. He certainly has an ego fit for a god, that's for certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc1
In the most religious areas of the country, the divorce rate is 50% higher than in the least religious areas. Violent crime is higher. Teen pregnancy is higher. Marital infidelity is higher. Crimes against property are higher. Infant mortality is higher. Porn viewership is higher. Obesity is higher. Dependence on government programs is higher. Average SAT scores, however, are lower. In almost every measurable sense, fundamentalist religion coincides with the breakdown of society. This trend extends to most places outside of the U.S., and to most points in human history. That's how far civilization can sink without penetrating the religion delusion. That's how much the religious are willing to sacrifice for the sake of maintaining their being "right." Needless to say, slitting your throat (or kicking you out of their house?), will be no small stretch for individuals willing to subject themselves and their loved ones to a third-world quality of life, in the name of religion.
One has to be careful about making a causation versus making a correlation. While I agree with you on all of these facts -- and many more that you haven't listed -- I tend to see a correlation between religion and these facts rather than a causation.
Religion is a scavenger. It loves to move among the poor, the desperate, the destitute, the lonely, the hopeless, the fearful, the sick, and those who have strayed from social norms. This is why here, in the United States, you'll find proselytizers hanging around places like bus stations (buses are the mode of travel for the poor), military bases (lots of lonely people there), certain hotels (depends on the clientele), hospitals, homeless shelters, prisons, orphanages, nursing homes, battered women's shelters, and anywhere else where you'll find lonely, sick, poor, and depressed people. Religion preys on their vulnerabilities in the hopes of adding them to their overgrown cult.
This why you do NOT see these same proselytizers hanging around outside Trump Tower, or the NY stock exchange, the entrance to Goldman-Sachs, airports (wealthier people tend to fly), the Waldorf-Astoria, shopping malls, sports stadiums, museums, movie theaters, restaurants -- or anywhere else where people tend to go with groups of friends and family to spend money. People who aren't lonely and who have money aren't as vulnerable.
The south -- especially the deep south -- have very poor social policies and poverty is rampant. Plus, Appalachia runs through many of those states and the poverty there is legendary. Outside of the cities, jobs can be scarce and religion has a stranglehold in some places even to the point of fascism. I remember when Louisiana, for instance, tried to pass a law requiring every female high school student in the public school system to submit to a pregnancy test -- those who refused or who tested positive would be immediately kicked out of school. Fortunately this draconian measure was struck down as unconstitutional, but it just goes to show you the kind of nonsense the folks down there have to worry about all the time from their fundamentalist politicians.
Unfortunately, religion tends to thrive in places that do not progress -- and then these places cannot progress because religion is thriving. The lack of progress and religion end up having a symbiotic relationship with each other thus locking them both in place
Moderator cut: This forum belongs in the Politics paragraph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc1
But, of course, I'm the evil, monstrous agent of Satan for mentioning it.
Of course you are -- because you're not conforming.
This is one of the primary reasons why fundamentalist religion is the original model of fascism. I know most historians will tell you that fascism was invented by Mussolini (that's where the word "fascism" came from, actually), but they'd be wrong.
Nice to see you, Shirina, and I would love to be able to say that recent events bore out an increase in Humanist thought and political savvy in the US, but in fact it is more cause for Gldnrule to crow "Toldya so!'
Why, do you not claim to be pre-ordained and chosen? That seems to be a special privilege...since there are very few mortals that could ever clam such--the last one being Christ...
It's amazing that most people these days don't understand how ordination works . Not any Joe on the streets can be ordained . There is a process involved
After all these years, one thing has become painfully clear to me: Plato's allegory of the cave is right on the money; you can try to bring facts and evidence to the minds of human beings, but they will violently, VIOLENTLY defend their delusions against them. Folks will place their opinions in full public view, for everyone to see, but the second you introduce their opinions to facts and evidence, they'll label YOU the bad guy. You can be nice about it. You can be cruel about it. You can be neutral about it. To most human beings, it makes no difference.
The ancient Greek philosophers asked how it was that more than one "god" could exist, and the citizens of Greece tortured and killed them for it. Galileo told the Christian church that planets existed outside of Earth and that those planets weren't orbiting Earth; the Christian church sentenced him to death for it. Charles Darwin showed that animal species' descended from more ancient species' and was met with little criticism, but when he merely suggested that the human species descended from more ancient species', the entire Western religious world called for his death. There has really been no collision between human opinion and objective fact which has not ended in some religious believer getting violent over it. The human ego simply isn't capable of denying its own omniscience. If you don't believe me, study history.
Human society has a way of weeding out bad ideas, and I'm glad to see that fundamentalist religious belief and low-information voting are on their way out in the U.S. In the most religious areas of the country, the divorce rate is 50% higher than in the least religious areas. Violent crime is higher. Teen pregnancy is higher. Marital infidelity is higher. Crimes against property are higher. Infant mortality is higher. Porn viewership is higher. Obesity is higher. Dependence on government programs is higher. Average SAT scores, however, are lower. In almost every measurable sense, fundamentalist religion coincides with the breakdown of society. This trend extends to most places outside of the U.S., and to most points in human history. That's how far civilization can sink without penetrating the religion delusion. That's how much the religious are willing to sacrifice for the sake of maintaining their being "right." Needless to say, slitting your throat (or kicking you out of their house?), will be no small stretch for individuals willing to subject themselves and their loved ones to a third-world quality of life, in the name of religion.
Moderator cut: This paragraph belongs in the Politics forum.
But, of course, I'm the evil, monstrous agent of Satan for mentioning it. When I peacefully erect my Baphomet statue on public grounds, where Christian nativity scenes have stood unquestioned for decades, YOU, religious zealot, are the victim. You're being persecuted, and I am the one who needs to "shut up." In your righteous might, you set fire to my statue and spray paint Christian hate speech on the sidewalk in front of it. Read the news and find out if I'm making this up.
The disconnect. The violent, furious entitlement. The paranoia. The narcissism. They're all brought to bare on anyone who introduces rational scrutiny to religious zealotry, no matter how gentle they are about it. It says everything you need to know about the religious.
Wow what a biased diatribe . Galileo was persecuted because he strayed outside of science into theology not the other way around .
If you had bothered to read some of his view you would have also mentioned that he not only believed that planets orbited the sun but that the sun was the center of all the universe . Plus his sentence was reduced to a house arrest that offered him a maid and many pluses . But of course we won't read this abd many other things from
You because of your bias towards your religion of unbelief .
In fact science itself has turned into a firm of religion . One example is vs ramachandran and his pushing of mirror neurons which was hyped by the atheistic oops I meant scientific community as the answer to how empathy and civilization developed .
Though it's been debunked now if you search google you will see pages devoted to this as if it's still real science but you'll have to dig for the refutations and most from real scientists .
They hailed him as a god at the atheistic beyond belief convention and of course vilified and pounded Stuart hameroff for his secular explanation for the soul and afterlife because it dared to take science to a more spiritual realm out of the divine methodological naturalism paradigm that is held holy .
Religion science and Atheism have made errors in this way but at least the Catholic Church admitted to this but atheists still to today are in love with ramachandran .
Ramachandran also claims the phantom limb theory explains obes during Ndes but in his ignorance he doesn't read the nde literature to understand that unlike phantom limbs veridical Ndes being back objectively verifiable info about this realm .
Yet atheists still regard this guy as their God .
Your post is extremely bias and also does
T mention the advancement in science by the Catholic Church like the Big Bang which came from a Jesuit priest .
This is a classical case of the pot calling the kettle black
Bit of course nothing brings out the anti science fundamentalist beliefs of the religion of atheism like near death experience research.
I couldn't have put it better myself. What a biased diatribe! True Galileo was only put under house confinement - after he recanted (under threat) what he knew was true. The earth was not the centre of the universe. If he thought the solar system was, it was because science had to wait 100 years counter -evidence to the claim appeared.
And Ramachandran is no more an authority figure for atheists than Dawkins or Bill Nye. The significance of NDE's is still unknown. There are a lot of theories floating about and we are waiting for some confirming evidence.
The fact is that it is the believers who want to insist on the claims that they prove an afterlife and on top of that a heaven and even more their particular god. They are the ones who are being dogmatic about NDE's when there is still a lot to learn about them.
At base...this is a "Might Makes Right" world.
Always was...is now...and probably always will be.
The Religious REALLY do believe in their various Gods and their associated ancient writings...and, as you noted, take great exception to challenges.
Once they have had what they feel is enough of whatever hassle they are getting...will fight to the death over it...and they comprise 80% of the world population.
So, you may not agree with them...but unless you hold your Nonbelief ideology, or your Baphomet Faith to be so deep and valuable that it is worth the life of you and yours to confront them with it...you should do the smart thing, and leave them be.
The Religious have always dealt very harshly with those who get on their case about it...always, throughout human history.
So...unless you have the desire and the ability to lay it all on the line for whatever satisfaction you get over telling them they are wrong...I'd say only a fool would do so.
Nothing is a greater motivation for humankind than if they believe "God Said So".
This isn't speculation...the backlash is happening right now. They WILL come with full vengeance when they feel they have had enough...and you may not even know when that is.
You seen anyone drawing cartoons mocking Mohammed lately?
Well, the Christians have been known to be just as bad or worse than the Radical Islamists have been...and I wouldn't count on a false sense that they won't run that game again.
Keep up the insulting, and mocking, and lawsuits. I bet I know where it will get you in the end.
If it doesn't ever get to that...it will be the first time.
No...that's not how it works. Mocking sometimes results in violence. Sometimes, however, it paves the way for greater acceptance. Think of Family Guy, South Park and all the blasphemous cartoons. Now, think of the old Simpsons episodes, the very first. The Simpsons, even now, is tame compared to Family Guy, South Park, Robot Chicken, and most of that sort of blasphemous entertainment media. The Simpsons used to be so much more tame, I find the old episodes dull.
That kind of pushing can get people used to it, and that's what some comedians are consciously striving to do to religion. I think it worked already with Christianity. Some people hypothesize it'll work with Islam. They feel like we need to get Muslims used to criticism and mockery, to dull their teeth somewhat. I'm not sure that'll work...but it's an idea.
No...that's not how it works. Mocking sometimes results in violence. Sometimes, however, it paves the way for greater acceptance. Think of Family Guy, South Park and all the blasphemous cartoons.
'Blasphemous!!' Some people need to drag themselves into the 21st century. Start by getting out more.
What the OP speaks of is fundamentalism. Not all Christians are fundamentalists just like not all Muslims are jihadists. However, fundamentalism of any kind can progress into dangerous territory.
It has been kept under wraps un the U.S. for most of our nation's history thanks to our Constitution and are generally Christian culture. However, there are signs that is changing. While Christian fundamentalists are a vocal minority and losing overall influence in culture, they are not going to go down without a fight, and they will cling to their fundamentalist beliefs and vision for America as a fundamentalist theocracy, even if it means destroying this country. They would rather live in a third-world fundamentalist society where their narrow interpretation of the Bible is forced on everyone than a first-world secular society.
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) and in A/A, time wasting preaching and evangelism is banned - but not posting arguments against atheism - though theists often claim that it is.
True Galileo was only put under house confinement - after he recanted (under threat) what he knew was true. The earth was not the centre of the universe. If he thought the solar system was, it was because science had to wait 100 years counter -evidence to the claim appeared. 
