Honor The Sabbath (and keep it holy)

[old_cold]

Originally Posted by Shirina

When it comes to help for the poor, those seeking help are largely legitimate. Ironically, it is mostly conservative Christians who cry the loudest about fraudsters scamming the system .

Although this could veer into the political, this one statement doesn't.
I'm an atheist and cry loudly because of being pretty familiar with the system.
It does result in those that truly do need the assistance being short-changed in several ways and also does cause the legitimate recipients to have the same shadow cast over them.
But it's not a small percentage outright scanning or, most generally, 'cheating' a painfully screwed up system.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by old_cold

I'm an atheist and cry loudly because of being pretty familiar with the system.
It does result in those that truly do need the assistance being short-changed in several ways and also does cause the legitimate recipients to have the same shadow cast over them. But it's not a small percentage outright scanning or, most generally, 'cheating' a painfully screwed up system.

the purpose of giving is to break your own greed and selfishness and transform ourselves into being more kind and generous and compassionate ourselves.

a person can point the finger at "the system" and complain and cry loudly all they want, the only thing that matters is how we put it into action ourselves and walk the talk. are you giving and helping those in need? or making excuses to justify why it's better to not give, and why it doesn't apply to you?

have you ever even walked into or spent time in a soup kitchen? women's shelter? meals on wheels route? homeless shelter of any kind? because what I keep hearing is excuses for not giving to help others.

giving is not about "them" it's about "you"

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

the purpose of giving is to break our own greed and transform ourselves into being more kind and generous and compassionate ourselves.

a person can point the finger at "the system" and complain all they want, the only thing that matters is how we put it into action ourselves and walk the talk. are you giving and helping those in need? or making excuses to justify why it's better to not give, and why it doesn't apply to you?

Well, it's too bad many Christians in this country do not feel the same. Sure, they might trundle down to a nearby church and donate some clothes smelling of mothballs that no one has worn since Saturday Night Fever came out. Or they might donate some canned goods or stuff that is just about to expire. I think much of the giving comes around Christmas when people will actually buy new toys for needy kids.

But as I said before, this country is saddled with latent Puritanism when it comes to our system of helping the poor. It's an ideology that says, "We know it's immoral not to help you, but we're going to punish you for needing our help." Thus, for the disabled, for instance, our punishment is living in abject poverty to the point of being left with deciding between having a home or eating.

Many conservative Christians think that the only help anyone should receive should only come from charity and not government programs. But charity is not going to have the resources to pay for medication or health care ... nor will it have the resources to keep a disabled person from ending up on the street.

What's more is that decisions are made in the political arena that focuses mainly on how to make it more difficult to obtain help to thwart scammers (who always beat the system anyway) instead of focusing on how best to help those in need.

If more Christians were actually, well ... Christian, it wouldn't be so hellish to be disabled in this country.

[old_cold]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

the purpose of giving is to break your own greed and selfishness and transform ourselves into being more kind and generous and compassionate ourselves.

a person can point the finger at "the system" and complain and cry loudly all they want, the only thing that matters is how we put it into action ourselves and walk the talk. are you giving and helping those in need? or making excuses to justify why it's better to not give, and why it doesn't apply to you?

have you ever even walked into or spent time in a soup kitchen? women's shelter? meals on wheels route? homeless shelter of any kind? because what I keep hearing is excuses for not giving to help others.

giving is not about "them" it's about "you"

I hope all of those "you's" aren't being asked of me personally because I never respond to posts ( or threads) that seem irresistible to the braggarts and can't resist letting everybody know how good they are and even those that maybe have a bit of a guilty complex so make the little they do seem like more or offer excuses as to why not.
The whole system, like way too many other governmental programs, is nothing more than a messed up patchwork of one band aid applied over another so the original and important purposes have been sunk under the weight of it all.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by old_cold

I hope all of those "you's" aren't being asked of me personally because I never respond to posts ( or threads) that seem irresistible to the braggarts and can't resist letting everybody know how good they are and even those that maybe have a bit of a guilty complex so make the little they do seem like more or offer excuses as to why not.
The whole system, like way too many other governmental programs, is nothing more than a messed up patchwork of one band aid applied over another so the original and important purposes have been sunk under the weight of it all.

All of those "you's" are questions to ask yourself, not to answer here. You are your own keeper.

[Rotagivan]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

the purpose of giving is to break your own greed and selfishness and transform ourselves into being more kind and generous and compassionate ourselves.

a person can point the finger at "the system" and complain and cry loudly all they want, the only thing that matters is how we put it into action ourselves and walk the talk. are you giving and helping those in need? or making excuses to justify why it's better to not give, and why it doesn't apply to you?

have you ever even walked into or spent time in a soup kitchen? women's shelter? meals on wheels route? homeless shelter of any kind? because what I keep hearing is excuses for not giving to help others.

giving is not about "them" it's about "you"

I notice you still haven't answered the question I asked you. I guess that since the thread is about 'the Sabbath' it is not that relevant but it was you who brought into the thread as an argument, the subject of tithing.

I think that greed and possessiveness and debt and ownership are unhelpful but I also think that all the good that people do in the world is largely off-set or relatively non-effective due to the nature of the systems in which these things are trying to be achieved.

Not that it isn't good to give, but no matter that one 'breaks their own selfishness and greed and transforms themselves into being more kind generous and compassionate,' they continue to live in a world largely governed by systems which operate based upon capitalizing upon those human traits and once a person is in sufficient debt, they tend to look for ways to continue paying that debt and haven;t the time to dedicate to those who are in needy positions.

This goes for countries as well as individuals.


One might want to ask the question "Who is all this debt owed to?"

I remember when I used to go to church and every 3 weeks - month there would always be a sermon on tithing and I once spoke with the pastor about it and decided that i would spend the tithe on food and put the food in a box and brought that to church. my reasoning was that the pastor told me a large portion of the tithe went towards repaying mortgage on the church building plus other related expenses...I figured surly people need food more than buildings which largely remain empty except for a few hours each week.