Jews believe that Jesus was not the messiah. (Revelation, prophecy, gospels)

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Rotagivan

... I understand that Jews do not believe in an entity called 'the devil' but is there another type of belief which would hold this to be the case...that it is possible for something evil to disguise itself as something good in order to deceive someone?

there is no devil in Judaism
the yetzer hara is the "evil inclination" which is within each person that can try to steer us to do wrong, while the yetzer tov is the "good inclination" which again we all have, and it steers us to do good.

so the answer to your question is yes, that is the job description of the yetzer hara and yes it does try to dress itself up as "good" to get us to do wrong. and the yetzer hara never goes away, no matter how "good" a person is. So the yetzer hara may dress up as a mitzvah to try and get us to transgress.

Even the yetzer hara though is employed by G-d, and wants us to choose good every time. It's job is for us to draw ever closer to G-d. So even the yetzer hara is a good guy at the core, because it steers us to G-d when we recognize its function.

Jews don't get to "blame" something external like the devil, we have to own it as part of our own psychological construct, and we overcome it by improving our own character traits, the focus is on self-refinement and self-improvement and self-development. It requires self-awareness, and taking responsibility for our thought, speech, action, motive, intention, all the time in every area of life.

[Rotagivan]

Okay thank you for that Tzaphkiel

The reason the Q is asked has to do with Saul claiming that he meet Jesus on the road while he was still in persecution mode.

Essentially he had a vision and according to the story the men travelling with him also heard the voice but unlike Saul did not see the vision of light flashing around him.

He was working as a Pharisee? He says he was a zealous member of Judaism and very learned in the traditions of the religion for someone of his age.

Q: Is it possible that Saul concoction the story as a way of infiltrating the new cult of followers of Jesus because arresting them and taking them to Jerusalem for questioning and possible execution was not having the affect of subjugating the followers of this new thing?

Q: Why would Judaism see the new cult as a threat when it was basically about loving each other? Was it because it also rejected an old covenant for a new one which was outside the confinement of the laws of Judaism?

My questions are focused upon trying to find some understanding as to what things might have been like if Saul had not done what he did do - especially in relation to the promised messiah and the confusion which surfaced and took hold in relation to the stories about Jesus returning as the messiah and the Antichrist - the Antichrist story has effectively made the position of the promised Jewish Messiah a tenuous one, as I have pointed out in another post in this thread.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Rotagivan

Why would Judaism see the new cult as a threat when it was basically about loving each other? Was it because it also rejected an old covenant for a new one which was outside the confinement of the laws of Judaism?

Judaism does not see other beliefs or other religions as a threat. They are just other religions. Someone may be mad I don't join their organization, it simply means I am happy with the organization I am already in. Jews have no need to change to another religion because we are happy with Judaism. The more love and kindness there is in the world, the better.

[caverunner17]

I'm not reading anything in here.... but can I say....

"No **** Sherlock"

If they did, they'd be Christian.

[Freak80]

He was not the messiah...just a very naughty boy!

[Rotagivan]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

Judaism does not see other beliefs or other religions as a threat. They are just other religions. Someone may be mad I don't join their organization, it simply means I am happy with the organization I am already in. Jews have no need to change to another religion because we are happy with Judaism. The more love and kindness there is in the world, the better.

I think you might be speaking about Judaism today?

So - if not (or if so) how is it that someone identifying as a Jew and a Roman citizen goes around lawfully persecuting anyone associated with this new thing which Jesus started?

I asked you this a few posts back.

The expectations of Jews and the expectations of Christians in regard to the messiah appear to cancel each other out.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Rotagivan

The expectations of Jews and the expectations of Christians in regard to the messiah appear to cancel each other out.

So what? I don't engage in comparative religion or speculative "what if" history scenarios. Christians draw close to God as Christians, Jews draw close to God as Jews. We are all beloved children of the Creator. May loving kindness pour forth in the world.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Rotagivan

The expectations of Jews and the expectations of Christians in regard to the messiah appear to cancel each other out.

that's like saying "Swahili and Japanese cancel each other out." They are different languages. They are understood by those who speak the language, but the speakers may not understand each other. Do you know more than one language, particularly one from a different family of languages? If so, then you know that there may not be a direct translation or correlation for every concept in every language. But it makes perfect sense to the people who know the language.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

So what? I don't engage in comparative religion or speculative "what if" history scenarios. Christians draw close to God as Christians, Jews draw close to God as Jews. We are all beloved children of the Creator. May loving kindness pour forth in the world.

Too soon for a rep. Very nice.

[Rotagivan]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

So what? I don't engage in comparative religion or speculative "what if" history scenarios. Christians draw close to God as Christians, Jews draw close to God as Jews. We are all beloved children of the Creator. May loving kindness pour forth in the world.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

that's like saying "Swahili and Japanese cancel each other out." They are different languages. They are understood by those who speak the language, but the speakers may not understand each other. Do you know more than one language, particularly one from a different family of languages? If so, then you know that there may not be a direct translation or correlation for every concept in every language. But it makes perfect sense to the people who know the language.

So then it would appear by your reply that not all those practicing the Judaism religion are awaiting a Messiah.

But that is what the focus of the thread subject is about. Jews do not believe Jesus was the messiah and they believe the individual who will be is yet to be revealed.

So due to your own particular beliefs, it appears that you don't have a problem with however G()D chooses to attract attention, be that Jesus or any other religious system.
That is refreshing on the face of things but it is not like that across the board. TFF for example appears to express problems with Jesus and Christianity, so you should understand the confusion this can create for those looking into how religions organize themselves.

What I meant by 'cancelling each other out' is that it appears that there is a stalemate in relation to the expected manner in which the two different ideas of 'the messiah' will do things, and that if the Judaism religions version comes out this one will be recognized by Christendom to being the Antichrist aka Satan . According to writ, this Jewish Messiah will deceive the nations' and cause people to turn away from G()D and that all will go well for the world for a few years before the deception becomes obvious.

Once the deception becomes obvious, things will quickly go pear shaped and life will suck worse than ever, and then after a few more years, Jesus will return and dethrone the impostor and his supporters and then get about showing the world how a real ruler G()D cleans up the human mess.

So that is the Christendom story.

(Muslims can, if they want to, jump in with their tale on things if they have one)


The Judaism religion has a different understanding. They know of course that their messiah will be mistaken for the Antichrist if indeed the person decides to show.

But that is 'okay' because really, G()D is in charge and if the role of the Jewish messiah can help the situation then G()D will use that for however long it works, and if (as the Christians believe) there is deception and things fall to pieces, then that is fine as Jesus will show up eventually and sort it.

However, the Judaism religion does not believe Jesus is any such subject of G()Ds plans and that the messiah will not fail and that after a few years of peace on earth , Christendom will finally understand that they were hoodwinked and that The Jewish messiah was the real deal and what they had been taught was the actual deception.

They will repent from holding onto their false beliefs and cooperate.

(But will the Muslims? What are their beliefs about this?)

So the plan is to proceed, regardless of the reception that is sure to follow. All that is required is for the Judaism religions messiah to show and perform the unfolding ancient prophetic utterances while there is still time to do so.

Or.

No such things are going to take place and the whole (Christendom's and the Judaism religions) stories are a fabrication and the only way humans are going to get out of their predicament is to do so for themselves if they so want to choose that and come up with a plan of action.

Which sounds a lot more practical than waiting around for a messiah to do so.