New Covenant? Or curse of Old Covenant? (salvation, grace, hell)

[june01]

I have heard the question that many organized Christians and other people of organized religions are actually still living under the curse of the Old Covenant. Or else, that their hearts are not fully clean. What does this mean?

[june01]

The reason I ask about this hear is because I have not found an answer in religious sources. But I know that many non-religious people have read the Bible.

[mordant]

If I correctly understand what you're referring to, this is just a claim by conservative Christians that many of their more liberal brethren are not "saved" because they don't literally believe in hell or their need to have a specific salvation "event" or "experience" in which they specifically repent and "accept Jesus". Or their beliefs are nebulous in these areas. Of course this judgment also applies to people of other faiths as well, but fundamentalists like to draw distinctions between "mere religion and actual relationship" and so also tend to consider liberal Christians either just as lost as someone outside the faith entirely, or at best, "weaker brothers" who are confused and out of touch with the full grace of god.

To be under the "curse of the Old Covenant" is to be subject to the Law and the penalty for not fulfilling the Law in every respect. Some would argue this only applies to Jews who specifically know and endorse the Law, and perhaps to Christians who implicitly endorse it. But I think most argue that the Law teaches all mankind that it cannot ever measure up to god's standards as embodied in the Law -- in other words, Israel was an object lesson for everyone. The curse is only lifted by the finished work of Christ which must be claimed by faith.

That is the party line as I recall it from my days as an evangelical.

If I may ask -- why are you seeking an answer to this particular question?

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by june01

I have heard the question that many organized Christians and other people of organized religions are actually still living under the curse of the Old Covenant. Or else, that their hearts are not fully clean. What does this mean?

You will find a lot of misunderstanding about the difference between the Covenants. The Mosaic Covenant is all about laying down rules to live by and trying to know and live by the rules. Jews have identified 613 such rules, if my memory serves, and those who think it is about rules claim to have found over a thousand such in the New Testament. This is wrong. While rules may be helpful guidelines in determining specific behaviors even down to jay walking being against the law because it can be dangerous, such rules can never cover every eventuality and/or culture and it is really not all that compelling to simply follow a rule without an understanding of the reason for the rule.

The New Covenant is not about the rules, but about the concern for the well-being of everyone involved in any situation. Most of the time the rules will cover anything that comes up, and we all do a little bending when we know the purpose of the rule....like jay-walking when we can see that it is safe to do so. Some of the accepted rules can actually be bad, though and we need to have the freedom to examine and change them, both personally and as a society. "the letter kills, but the spirit gives life" is a valuable quote to remember about following rules.

This is what is meant by Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Notice that it is not merely about refraining from hurting someone, but it is about doing something good when the occasion comes up.

Paul calls the Old Covenant "the law of sin and death" and that is what merely following laws is compared to a heart-felt commitment to love as the basis for relating to God and man.

[beninfl]

That goes along with the saying that "Religion is not well defined" and is so differently practiced that there's no possible way it can be right. Welcome to the Atheism subforum.

[beninfl]

Hey look at that, the mods moved this thread into the Religion subforum. So before people beat me over the head for "flaming" or something like that, this thread *was* in the Atheism section before it was moved.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by beninfl

Hey look at that, the mods moved this thread into the Religion subforum. So before people beat me over the head for "flaming" or something like that, this thread *was* in the Atheism section before it was moved.

Likely story!

[june01]

Originally Posted by mordant

If I may ask -- why are you seeking an answer to this particular question?

Because of this:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

[mordant]

Originally Posted by june01

Because of this:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

That is Jeremiah prophesying, presumably, about a future time. That being in the view of most Christians "the church age" since it's then quoted by the writer of Hebrews to claim it for such. Reading Jeremiah 31 in context, it is foretelling a "coming day" when there will be a "new covenant".

Make of it what you will. Which is what most people do ;-)

[june01]

When you listen to Job speak, it sound like he was living under the new covenant already. Same with David.