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My other threads got me thinking about this topic. Consider the following.
* Jesus sent his disciples to go preach his message to all the nations, but, as someone mentioned in my other thread, the Gospel Message didn't even make to the Western Hemisphere until 1492.
* The new religion he was preaching split into 41000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholiciscm. All those groups are reading the same Bible.
* Books about him were anonymously written. 3 of the 4 in the Bible left out the part about Jesus being equal to God.
* Catholocism really took off and the church had to be Reformed in 1517.
* Failed prochephy about the End Times happening during the life of his Disciples.
* Misquoted the Old Testament on at least 1 occassion.
* Christianity on a massive decline in Western Civilization right now.
If believers in Jesus' divinity hold closest to themselves his essential message of love and compassion, I'd consider his ministry a success - at least for them.
Unfortunately, many Christians seem to prefer to take their cue from Jesus' non-human Dad.
My other threads got me thinking about this topic. Consider the following.
* Jesus sent his disciples to go preach his message to all the nations, but, as someone mentioned in my other thread, the Gospel Message didn't even make to the Western Hemisphere until 1492.
* The new religion he was preaching split into 41000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholiciscm. All those groups are reading the same Bible.
* Books about him were anonymously written. 3 of the 4 in the Bible left out the part about Jesus being equal to God.
* Catholocism really took off and the church had to be Reformed in 1517.
* Failed prochephy about the End Times happening during the life of his Disciples.
* Misquoted the Old Testament on at least 1 occassion.
* Christianity on a massive decline in Western Civilization right now.
The ministry Jesus was active with on earth was not for the purpose of spreading a new religion. Jesus was Jewish and he believed he was Jewish.
So making that assumption is false, but understandable considering Paul's influence on both Christianity and the completion of the Gospels.
Jesus ministry (which I doubt he considered a ministry) was about showing love and acceptance to all people of all classes. He was fighting for equality, not worship. He was interested in the earthly life of people, not eternal lives or afterlife.
The idea of religion, the Church, etc, was a creation of Paul.
The ministry Jesus was active with on earth was not for the purpose of spreading a new religion. Jesus was Jewish and he believed he was Jewish.
So making that assumption is false, but understandable considering Paul's influence on both Christianity and the completion of the Gospels.
Jesus ministry (which I doubt he considered a ministry) was about showing love and acceptance to all people of all classes. He was fighting for equality, not worship. He was interested in the earthly life of people, not eternal lives or afterlife.
The idea of religion, the Church, etc, was a creation of Paul.
IMO JC from a Judaism POV was a mellow Conservative Jew living among strict Orthodox Jews who lived among Pagans. He wanted a less strict Judaism and had many people who agreed with him. Hypothetically IMO what he envisioned during his life then, looks like nearly nothing like it looks now in the US, EU and Africa.
The only monkey wrench in this "Jesus was just a pious man who made it His mission to show us how love and compassion should work" is His statement that He came to give His life a ransom.
What does that mean?
Does it mean He knew He was divinely foreordained to be betrayed by His closest associate and die for the sins of mankind?
Does it mean He saw this ransom as a form of sacrificial death for man's sake similar to how Mother Teresa sacrificed her life?
Does it mean He knew His enemies would eventually have Him executed but that His death had nothing to do with salvation of the human race--it was just a common execution the way all zealots are eventually executed for their beliefs?
The common quotation is "God is not the author of confusion, but the Bible is a mass of the most abstruse, contradictory, confusing, cryptic writing ever devised. If the Bible is not the penultimate example of confusion I don't know what is.
But stop and consider that God deliberately intended the Bible to be that way. After all nothing in this world is perfect. Consider this "ridiculous" verse:
Quote:
"But the foolishness of God is wiser than men" 1 Corinthians 1:25
It states plainly that God is foolish at times. But His foolishness is wiser than the wisest of men.
Confusing?
Don't you say, "Wait a minute. How can the Being who created the universe be a fool?" Someone else says, "You misunderstand. God is not foolish. Paul is trying to make a point that if God WERE foolish it would be more intelligent than man's greatest wisdom." This whole setup is confusing: God is foolish, but God is not foolish. Even Paul couldn't write a simple sentence without making a muck of what he was trying to say in his efforts to sound profound.
To the question, is Christ a failure. In some respects,yes. In others, no. But it's all part of a cosmic grand plan we have absolutely no concept of--it is so vast and incomprehensible that I have complete faith that we will come to understand how all this evil and imperfection in the world works out to perfection when we pass over that great threshold called death.
The only monkey wrench in this "Jesus was just a pious man who made it His mission to show us how love and compassion should work" is His statement that He came to give His life a ransom.
What does that mean?
Does it mean He knew He was divinely foreordained to be betrayed by His closest associate and die for the sins of mankind?
Does it mean He saw this ransom as a form of sacrificial death for man's sake similar to how Mother Teresa sacrificed her life?
Does it mean He knew His enemies would eventually have Him executed but that His death had nothing to do with salvation of the human race--it was just a common execution the way all zealots are eventually executed for their beliefs?
The common quotation is "God is not the author of confusion, but the Bible is a mass of the most abstruse, contradictory, confusing, cryptic writing ever devised. If the Bible is not the penultimate example of confusion I don't know what is.
But stop and consider that God deliberately intended the Bible to be that way. After all nothing in this world is perfect. Consider this "ridiculous" verse:
It states plainly that God is foolish at times. But His foolishness is wiser than the wisest of men.
Confusing?
Don't you say, "Wait a minute. How can the Being who created the universe be a fool?" Someone else says, "You misunderstand. God is not foolish. Paul is trying to make a point that if God WERE foolish it would be more intelligent than man's greatest wisdom." This whole setup is confusing: God is foolish, but God is not foolish. Even Paul couldn't write a simple sentence without making a muck of what he was trying to say in his efforts to sound profound.
To the question, is Christ a failure. In some respects,yes. In others, no. But it's all part of a cosmic grand plan we have absolutely no concept of--it is so vast and incomprehensible that I have complete faith that we will come to understand how all this evil and imperfection in the world works out to perfection when we pass over that great threshold called death.
You're the one confused Thrillobyte, God isn't. Keep reading the scripture over and over, ask questions, you'll finally get it.
My other threads got me thinking about this topic. Consider the following.
* Jesus sent his disciples to go preach his message to all the nations, but, as someone mentioned in my other thread, the Gospel Message didn't even make to the Western Hemisphere until 1492.
* The new religion he was preaching split into 41000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholiciscm. All those groups are reading the same Bible.
Now it's 41,000. Yay. Every time this nonsensical statement is said I ask for a list of these supposed tens of thousands of denominations. I have yet to see one.
Quote:
* Books about him were anonymously written. 3 of the 4 in the Bible left out the part about Jesus being equal to God.
No....there is plenty in there about his Divinity.
Quote:
* Catholocism really took off and the church had to be Reformed in 1517.
* Failed prochephy about the End Times happening during the life of his Disciples.
No...the prophecies are still there. waiting to be fulfilled.
Quote:
* Misquoted the Old Testament on at least 1 occassion.
No he didn't.
Quote:
* Christianity on a massive decline in Western Civilization right now.
No. He accomplished exactly what he intended to do.
The message Jesus(as) gave when people stopped listening to Him and began worshiping him. In that sense his ministry was a failure. But it was not a failure as all that happened was intended to happen.
The world was given a chance to return to the original message. It was the fault of people that his message was ignored. Just as it had been ignored before.
The only monkey wrench in this "Jesus was just a pious man who made it His mission to show us how love and compassion should work" is His statement that He came to give His life a ransom.
What does that mean?
Does it mean He knew He was divinely foreordained to be betrayed by His closest associate and die for the sins of mankind?
Does it mean He saw this ransom as a form of sacrificial death for man's sake similar to how Mother Teresa sacrificed her life?
Does it mean He knew His enemies would eventually have Him executed but that His death had nothing to do with salvation of the human race--it was just a common execution the way all zealots are eventually executed for their beliefs?
The common quotation is "God is not the author of confusion, but the Bible is a mass of the most abstruse, contradictory, confusing, cryptic writing ever devised. If the Bible is not the penultimate example of confusion I don't know what is.
But stop and consider that God deliberately intended the Bible to be that way. After all nothing in this world is perfect. Consider this "ridiculous" verse:
It states plainly that God is foolish at times. But His foolishness is wiser than the wisest of men.
Confusing?
Don't you say, "Wait a minute. How can the Being who created the universe be a fool?" Someone else says, "You misunderstand. God is not foolish. Paul is trying to make a point that if God WERE foolish it would be more intelligent than man's greatest wisdom." This whole setup is confusing: God is foolish, but God is not foolish. Even Paul couldn't write a simple sentence without making a muck of what he was trying to say in his efforts to sound profound.
To the question, is Christ a failure. In some respects,yes. In others, no. But it's all part of a cosmic grand plan we have absolutely no concept of--it is so vast and incomprehensible that I have complete faith that we will come to understand how all this evil and imperfection in the world works out to perfection when we pass over that great threshold called death.
Did you hear him state this? Or could this be taken out of the gospels which were heavily influenced by Paul's focus on Jesus's role in paying for everyone's sin by dying on the cross, and his (Paul's) concern for the eternal souls of people?
Now, you probably have read a lot more into all of this than I have and I will concede that. Yet, I have a strong feeling and sense that Jesus was not nearly so concerned with the eternal lives of souls after their death. Instead, he was concerned with the corporeal lives of men and women while they were on earth. Be it through charity, healing, etc, particularly among the downtrodden classes in society (which was a very rigid class society with great expectations and limited opportunities depending on the class).
Of course, breaking down this class structure in and of itself was revolutionary. Enough so that the higher society of Romans, as well as higher classes of Hebrews would not have appreciated it much and which would have squarely put Jesus on the radar.
I am not sure I would equate this with a main purpose for Jesus of only being pious even if that was part of the motivation and desire. I do know much of what Paul has written and taught, which consequently leads us to modern Christianity, is not what Jesus was really saying or doing while running around Israel.
Ultimately, I am not even sure modern Christianity is fully what Jesus thought would happen and therefore, cannot say whether in that sense Jesus would find his work to have been a total success. Maybe he would or maybe not.
Either way, in general, Jesus sure has had a huge influence on modern world history, for believers and non believers alike.
My other threads got me thinking about this topic. Consider the following.
* Jesus sent his disciples to go preach his message to all the nations, but, as someone mentioned in my other thread, the Gospel Message didn't even make to the Western Hemisphere until 1492.
* The new religion he was preaching split into 41000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholiciscm. All those groups are reading the same Bible.
* Books about him were anonymously written. 3 of the 4 in the Bible left out the part about Jesus being equal to God.
* Catholocism really took off and the church had to be Reformed in 1517.
* Failed prophecy about the End Times happening during the life of his Disciples.
* Misquoted the Old Testament on at least 1 occassion.
* Christianity on a massive decline in Western Civilization right now.
Yes. And btw, the bolded is precisely the problem.
Jesus was NOT the Son of God. He was a Jewish prophet sent by God to reform Judaism.
Judaism is about wholeness. As in, "Hear Oh Israel, The Lord Your God Is One." Except, the temple had become horribly corrupt under the influence of Roman rule, and not only were people's spirits broken by oppression, but their faith itself was wrecked by stuff like... well, turning their holy sacrifices into a market.
Jesus grew up around this environment, and called for Jews to be better people. Only... the temple was an established business. They were experts at putting down threats to their power. Love your enemy? What? Nah, crucify the punk.
Now, here's the odd part. His followers didn't really want to follow him either.
"Jesus is the Son of God, he's perfect! We couldn't possibly live up to the standard he expects of us! But don't worry, all we need to do is worship him, then we'll be saved." Mmmm hmmm. See you guys in hell. Along with the fundamentalists who beat gays to death.
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