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They aren't like Jesus' good episodes though. Let the bad keep their religions, if its stops the good from having to do bad things to guard against the bad. All religions are human, especially the religions based on fallible human emotions and feelings. I've always thought of Christians as hypocrites because of their fruit (what they've accomplished) not because of how they are Jesus like, they never fully explain what Jesus was like in Churches anyway. Of course, Jesus' fruit is comparable to Muhammad's... So perhaps Christians are like an Iron-Age Jew anyway, and Muslims like a Medieval Arab. I think Jesus was a viper himself, much like the Pharisees. And Jesus shows his all-too-human hypocrisy in many occasions. Christians are humans too, after all.
ENOUGH!!! It takes a thoroughly warped mindset to see Jesus as a viper . . . but in truth it takes an equally warped mindset to see Him as a righteous torturer as so many Christians do. A pox on both camps of intolerant, inconsiderate, unloving people! If Christ were here today . . . He would probably still be scourged and crucified by them.
"Suppose that a perfectly just man came into the world. He must not merely seem just, but be just.
However, it's important that he not be viewed as just. If he were, he would be honored and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice, or for the sake of honors and rewards.
Therefore let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering ... Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worse. Then he will have put to the proof, and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy. And let him continue thus to the hour of his death, being just and seeming unjust.
What will the fate of such a man be?
He will be scourged, racked, bound. He will have his eyes burned out. And at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled."
The out of context excuse really is THE weakest of all apologetics. I do not bother much these days as I used to by posting entire chapters as the folk that use this excuse really mean, unless your conclusions are the same as mine it is out of context. I expect the opponent to do his own reading of the "context"
So because you have seen the claim of context abused in the past, you will here forward reject out-of-hand every argument that includes the world "context"? You also seem to be implying that it gives you license to lift any phrase from the bible anywhere and juxtapose it to any other phrase from anywhere else (which was my argument regarding your original post). Does that seem intellectually honest to you? To me it seems like the very same logical fallacy you accused me of, just in the opposite direction - instead of including additional information you want to exclude any information that may be inconvenient (stacking the deck).
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The whole idea of man made temples is strongly condemned by Jesus and yet there they are in all their glory for all to see.
Aside from his treatment of the money changers in the temple, which I think you are expanding upon to suit your needs, I don't remember this occurring. Can you enlighten me?
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There is no honest or reasonable answer. The only place I really saw it practised was in the cult I was brought up in. The workers we had gave up everything even their clothes. Everything they needed was supplied by way of gifts be it cars, money for gas, clothing; they stayed with other believers in their homes and so on. They were not allowed to own anything material.
That sounds like a rough way to grow up.
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I make no distinction between organised religion and god belief. The latter does not come from anything other than organised religion.
Then you are willfully making a sweeping generalization.
ENOUGH!!! It takes a thoroughly warped mindset to see Jesus as a viper . . . but in truth it takes an equally warped mindset to see Him as a righteous torturer as so many Christians do. A pox on both camps of intolerant, inconsiderate, unloving people! If Christ were here today . . . He would probably still be scourged and crucified by them.
I don't exactly know what you think viper equates too, but I think vipers are glorious creatures. I was comparing Jesus to a Pharisee, and he called the Pharisees "vipers" himself... Actually, they got as pissed about that as you did.
I think if Jesus were here today, he would probably still chase the "money to sacrificial animal changers" with a whip.
people are just people, you'd be insulting vipers before you insult people by comparing the two. I see Jesus as a human, and Christians are supposed to too; since he was fully-human by decree of their ancestors. Illogically adding that he was fully-god doesn't change the fact that to be fully-human one must be fully-human.
"Suppose that a perfectly just man came into the world. He must not merely seem just, but be just.
However, it's important that he not be viewed as just. If he were, he would be honored and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice, or for the sake of honors and rewards.
Therefore let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering ... Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worse. Then he will have put to the proof, and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy. And let him continue thus to the hour of his death, being just and seeming unjust.
What will the fate of such a man be?
He will be scourged, racked, bound. He will have his eyes burned out. And at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled."
That's about the dumbest thing I heard from Plato, other than the need for the persecution of Atheists and Agnostics (perhaps because they cause the washing away of those all-too-needed pillars of sand). Jesus didn't have his eyes burned out, and he was viewed as just by many who fawned and worshiped at his feet.
Still, Plato's idea is that someone who is just in order to fit into (partial) Messianic prophecy, and be honored and rewarded as a King of the Jews, is not really a just person at all.
However, Plato's definition puts every self-righteous person (including those self-righteous through sheer stupidity), who are too stubborn to let go of their self-righteous ideas, as a "perfectly just man."
doesn't an unjust man also seem unjust? Or does a "perfectly unjust man" act?
Not caring about other people's thoughts about you or actions against you doesn't make you "perfectly just" in fact, not caring about other people's input is sort of unjust.
I don't know if this is an American thing but this is always a preamble of a strawman being constructed. I explained myself pretty clearly and I have to assume you do not have comprehension skills.
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you have seen the claim of context abused in the past, you will here forward reject out-of-hand every argument that includes the world "context"?
Yes that is exactly what I said
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You also seem to be implying that it gives you license to lift any phrase from the bible anywhere and juxtapose it to any other phrase from anywhere else (which was my argument regarding your original post). Does that seem intellectually honest to you? To me it seems like the very same logical fallacy you accused me of, just in the opposite direction - instead of including additional information you want to exclude any information that may be inconvenient (stacking the deck).
You are on a roll here, may I offer you this for your strawmen
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Aside from his treatment of the money changers in the temple, which I think you are expanding upon to suit your needs, I don't remember this occurring. Can you enlighten me?
Maybe you should read what I post. You argue like a typical apologist creating and defeating strawmen of your own making.
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That sounds like a rough way to grow up.
Yes it does. However this is the only cult that does in fact have some (not all) called workers (priests by any other definition) that embrace this aspect of giving it all up.
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Then you are willfully making a sweeping generalization.
You think so? I have yet to meet anyone that left organised religion that did not still hold onto religious bias and indoctrination who still claim to be a follower/believer. Their entire outlook is based on what was indoctrinated and what they end up with is a belief tailored to suit their personal biases. You should read up on the Iconography of the gods thread and see how I explain it there.
My "standards" by way of my indoctrination is very harsh. We were taught (like all others), we were the truth and all others were counterfeits. That was one huge BS lie as it turned out. Knowing how successful indoctrination works, especially in our cult where there was no kiddies church and you were in amongst the adults from the time you were born. Extrapolation of that onto churches that have kiddies church, it is a mere gentle introduction to the BS veiled in white lies and cute stories. I was already well read at age 10 in the KJV version, we were forced by my dad to read long passages. Most kids this age are still in kiddies church.
Were I still in this cult mindset, I would be considered an off the charts fundamentalist. We had no icing on our cake we were force fed. Most of the kids in the cult leave as it is too harsh a lifestyle to live with no radio, no TV, no movies, no nothing that detracts. The only difference between us and the Amish, we did not live in isolation geographically but may as well have done so. We were not even allowed what they considered "worldly" friends and were for the most part forced to mix it with other kids from the church.
And guess what? Where ever I went to any denomination, I saw the exact same thing happening. A lot of their actions do not align with what I read and it was obvious (now, not then) that everyone was making it up as they went along.
Confirmation bias plays a huge role in this aspect of how people THINK what is christ-like or not.
Ah, but you're forgetting one very important thing... when contrasting two groups or entities, you compare the differences not the similarities. The study did not look at belief. Instead, it looked at attitude and actions, of which there were clear differences between the two (according the Bible).
"Suppose that a perfectly just man came into the world. He must not merely seem just, but be just.
However, it's important that he not be viewed as just. If he were, he would be honored and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice, or for the sake of honors and rewards.
Therefore let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering ... Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worse. Then he will have put to the proof, and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy. And let him continue thus to the hour of his death, being just and seeming unjust.
What will the fate of such a man be?
He will be scourged, racked, bound. He will have his eyes burned out. And at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled."
How can a man be just without dealing with the unjust? Wouldn't dealing with the unjust mean that one may have to "live by the sword" or use words that are the equivalent? Why would such a fate be a surprise especially in biblical times?
I don't know if this is an American thing but this is always a preamble of a strawman being constructed.
I probably had that straw man diatribe coming to me, as I did over generalize your comments.
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I explained myself pretty clearly
Only in general terms. That is to say, you asserted that context arguments are weak without clarification. Based on your reaction to my generalization, shall I assume that you believe that some arguments based on context are weak? all? most? And if not all, are you asserting that my specific contextual arguments are weak? I think in at least some cases, they are quite strong (e.g. the woman anointing Jesus feet). Do you think that argument is weak, and if so why?
All of that said, I am inferring from your earlier posts (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that you are not interested in taking the dialogue so far as to address things point-by-point. That's fine as well, I am certainly willing to drop that discussion.
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Maybe you should read what I post.
I do, but there is clearly a disconnect between us somewhere. If you would like to blame that on my comprehension skills, I shan't argue. Getting defensive over personal attacks does not move the conversation forward. That said, I would be interested in your assertion that Jesus preached against man-made churches. It's a viewpoint that I don't have much experience with. If you would care to expound, I'm listening. If not, so be it.
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creating and defeating strawmen of your own making.
Yup, I'm going to take that one on the chin as a fair criticism of my over-generalizations of your earlier statements.
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You think so?
I do
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I have yet to meet anyone that left organised religion that did not still hold onto religious bias and indoctrination who still claim to be a follower/believer.
Two points here:
First, I've never met a billionaire, former president of the US, or anyone who has survived a direct lightning strike. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that all of these people exist.
Second, at what point in this conversation did I claim to be a follower or believer?
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My "standards" by way of my indoctrination is very harsh.
It certainly sounds that way. I do offer my sympathy that you were robbed of so many aspects of your childhood by the extreamests of your parent's cult, and I mean that honestly.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have a daughter of my own (a son as well, but he is very young). I do not bring them to any church, nor do I encourage them to believe in any religion. I think that is a decision for them to make when they are old enough. I'm sure that many church-going Christians would think I'm being irresponsible, but I don't believe in tilting the playing field before they are old enough to reason things out for themselves.
Thanks again.
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