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Define "Christian". You'll get different answers from any of the thousands of denominations.
That's actually a very good point. Many people around her consider "Christian" to mean that they live in the US, or that they are a nice person, or went to a Vacation Bible School once when they were 7.
The Bible defines "Christian" as someone that trusts in Christ alone--the sacrifice he made on the cross for the forgiveness of their sin.
In addition to that, we need to define "gay". Is it merely someone that is attracted to someone of the same gender? Is it a man that wears feather boas and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous shoes? A woman with a crew cut and wears a man's suit? Is it based on a feeling someone gets? Or a behavior?
That's actually a very good point. Many people around her consider "Christian" to mean that they live in the US, or that they are a nice person, or went to a Vacation Bible School once when they were 7.
Maybe we can agree to call that "cultural Christianity". The same phenomenon happens in all religions ... people for instance may identify as "Jewish" but that says nothing inherently about whether they are observant Jews, much less Reformed or Orthodox, etc.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
The Bible defines "Christian" as someone that trusts in Christ alone--the sacrifice he made on the cross for the forgiveness of their sin.
I agree, although, the details of what "trust", "sin", "forgiveness" and "sacrifice" mean and how they interact vary a great deal across Christendom.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
In addition to that, we need to define "gay". Is it merely someone that is attracted to someone of the same gender? Is it a man that wears feather boas and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous shoes? A woman with a crew cut and wears a man's suit? Is it based on a feeling someone gets? Or a behavior?
I have no idea what you are getting at or fishing for. "Gay" is slang for "homosexual" which means a person who is sexually attracted primarily to members of the same sex. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, this is what public discourse on the matter refers to. Just as "heterosexual" refers to persons primarily attracted sexually to the opposite gender. Neither term really refers to sexual behavior, but to attraction (or in the parlance, "orientation"). Obviously, people behave based on their attractions, generally speaking. But since the Bible holds even a heterosexual man liable for fornication for merely thinking about it, much less doing it, I'm kind of surprised you appear to be bothering to make a distinction between attraction and behavior. Or are you going someplace else with this?
Maybe we can agree to call that "cultural Christianity". The same phenomenon happens in all religions ... people for instance may identify as "Jewish" but that says nothing inherently about whether they are observant Jews, much less Reformed or Orthodox, etc.
I agree, although, the details of what "trust", "sin", "forgiveness" and "sacrifice" mean and how they interact vary a great deal across Christendom.
I think we're on the same general page with this stuff above here.
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I have no idea what you are getting at or fishing for. "Gay" is slang for "homosexual" which means a person who is sexually attracted primarily to members of the same sex. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, this is what public discourse on the matter refers to. Just as "heterosexual" refers to persons primarily attracted sexually to the opposite gender. Neither term really refers to sexual behavior, but to attraction (or in the parlance, "orientation"). Obviously, people behave based on their attractions, generally speaking. But since the Bible holds even a heterosexual man liable for fornication for merely thinking about it, much less doing it, I'm kind of surprised you appear to be bothering to make a distinction between attraction and behavior. Or are you going someplace else with this?
I would argue that as far as Biblical Christianity goes, there is a difference between the person that feels some temptation or attraction versus the person that actively seeks out to live a homosexual lifestyle, engaging in homosexual sex.
The Bible does not condemn being tempted, or fighting against sin. It does condemn the act of diving headlong into a sinful activity though--be it homosexuality, heterosexual fornication/adultery, or anything else.
I would argue that as far as Biblical Christianity goes, there is a difference between the person that feels some temptation or attraction versus the person that actively seeks out to live a homosexual lifestyle, engaging in homosexual sex.
The Bible does not condemn being tempted, or fighting against sin. It does condemn the act of diving headlong into a sinful activity though--be it homosexuality, heterosexual fornication/adultery, or anything else.
Biblically speaking, isn't a man who lusts for a woman "in his heart" as guilty of fornication as if he had actually acted on it?
To the point of the OP, though, Christianity generally defines homosexuality (a sexual orientation to the same gender) as "sin". Clearly you do -- it is something to be "fought against" and "not acted on". My guess is that even you would agree that if a person is gay and doesn't want their behavior labeled sin, they have no basis to think they have a welcoming place in Christianity. They either have to deny their sexual orientation and label it as sin, or look elsewhere for a place to belong.
Biblically speaking, isn't a man who lusts for a woman "in his heart" as guilty of fornication as if he had actually acted on it?
Yes.
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To the point of the OP, though, Christianity generally defines homosexuality (a sexual orientation to the same gender) as "sin".
I don't see that concept supported in scripture. The Bible condemns the behavior, but doesn't really deal with the idea of orientation.
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Clearly you do -- it is something to be "fought against" and "not acted on". My guess is that even you would agree that if a person is gay and doesn't want their behavior labeled sin, they have no basis to think they have a welcoming place in Christianity.
Only if they are actively engaging in it. I'd also question a person's Christianity if they were shacking up with a person of the opposite gender.
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They either have to deny their sexual orientation and label it as sin, or look elsewhere for a place to belong.
That's the essence of Christianity--denying oneself and choosing Christ. Be it same gender sex or opposite gender sex.
If a heterosexual is guilty of fornication just for fantasizing about it, isn't a homosexual guilty of sodomy just for being attracted to it?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I don't see that concept supported in scripture. The Bible condemns the behavior, but doesn't really deal with the idea of orientation.
Point taken. But that's probably because in Biblical times there wasn't as much nuance as that. Behavior implied orientation and it was all seen as depraved. I am skeptical that some guy 3,000 years ago who admitted being attracted to other men (or to his goats, or whatever) wouldn't be stoned simply because he hadn't acted on it. He'd be seen as unclean, depraved, and a threat to the community for even entertaining such horrific thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Only if they are actively engaging in it. I'd also question a person's Christianity if they were shacking up with a person of the opposite gender.
As a practical matter, you are asking gay persons to be asexual for life. This is something that Exodus International even figured out is both unworkable and harmful to people.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
That's the essence of Christianity--denying oneself and choosing Christ. Be it same gender sex or opposite gender sex.
I totally agree. Where we probably disagree is on whether said denial is ennobling and positive.
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