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I'd really like to see your definition of "perfect", as Mr5150 asked.
Well, as I answered above, I'm using the definition of all-knowing, all-powerful and incapable of making a mistake.
What I'm saying is, what if God 1) doesn't know everything that's going to happen, 2) can't do absolutely everything s/he/it wants to and/or 3) can make mistakes?
Some people just have to take their digs and just can't stay on topic
Jerz - love you too - you are my kind of person
You asked...
What if God is very capable of things we can never be capable of, and much stronger than we are, but He's not perfect? Why isn't that a possibility?
This thought had never occurred to me as being a possibility because I guess I supposed that the creator of all things would just have to be "perfect" at all things - if that makes any sense. Basically, I never spent any time pondering this.
But suppose what you have written IS possible...that God is very capable of things we can never be capable of, and much stronger than we are, but He's not perfect - I'm okay with that too because he's STILL stronger than we are.
For me, God is "large and in charge" and that's what really matters.
Perhaps what I'm trying to reconcile is the idea of free will and making a final "choice," with God already knowing what that choice is. Because if He is truly omniscient and knows what's going to happen...
1. Why should anyone try? It's predestined.
2. On the chance that I'm hell-bound ( ) then I could try and try and then be denied...how absolutely heartbreaking and horrible. And how horrible and heartless to think of a God sitting there and watching that, all the while planning a special roasting pan just for me.
3. That doesn't leave a lot for God to be happy about in the end. He already knows it all. It's like playing Monopoly already knowing you'll win with two hotels on Park Place and the Boardwalk and $2700 in your bank.
4. It also doesn't leave any joy for God when someone unexpectedly does something lovely, because there's no "unexpected".
5. I could never have the joy of thinking I'd made God happy, because how can He be happy if He planned it all anyway? In that case, I didn't do anything special at all. I just followed my program.
ETA: But if God doesn't know all, then none of the above would apply and things would make more sense. To me, anyway. I suppose I'm just still trying to believe in God...even after all these years.
Another edit: LM: And I would be okay with this too.
Well, as I answered above, I'm using the definition of all-knowing, all-powerful and incapable of making a mistake.
What I'm saying is, what if God 1) doesn't know everything that's going to happen, 2) can't do absolutely everything s/he/it wants to and/or 3) can make mistakes?
My apologies...I didn't realize you posted that. I'd now like to see what you consider a "mistake".
In regards to the rest, you seem to be describing a Deist's version of God. The idea of God creating the universe and not being able to be master of it by being omnipotent and omniscient is kind of absurd, in my opinion.
My apologies...I didn't realize you posted that. I'd now like to see what you consider a "mistake".
In regards to the rest, you seem to be describing a Deist's version of God. The idea of God creating the universe and not being able to be master of it by being omnipotent and omniscient is kind of absurd, in my opinion.
Well, I know I've created things that have gotten out of control. Like my last bolognese recipe. Or my children!
As for "mistake," the Flood always comes to mind (and yes, I know it's allegorical but even allegorically, God makes a mistake here). I see it as a mistake because God apologizes. Why would he apologize if he's perfect, can not make a mistake and it was meant to happen? That's just what comes to mind here.
Now if, OTOH, he apologized simply because he knew it was right, yet he also knew it hurt, then it doesn't make sense that he doesn't apologize in the same way for other things that have to happen, but hurt.
There are also many passages where God saw that something had happened and got angry...that too would seem to point to a lack of omniscience, IMO. I can't see how anyone can suddenly see something and become angry when he knew all along it was exactly what was going to happen. Or why he could see something and be pleased...again, if it came as no surprise and he ordered it to happen and foresaw exactly how it would happen, it seems odd to feel an emotion, like pleasure, connected to that. There wouldn't be an emotional response that would be connected in any way to surprise.
As for "mistake," the Flood always comes to mind (and yes, I know it's allegorical but even allegorically, God makes a mistake here). I see it as a mistake because God apologizes. Why would he apologize if he's perfect, can not make a mistake and it was meant to happen? That's just what comes to mind here.
Now if, OTOH, he apologized simply because he knew it was right, yet he also knew it hurt, then it doesn't make sense that he doesn't apologize in the same way for other things that have to happen, but hurt.
I hope this makes sense.
I don't believe we can call it a "mistake". He knew it would happen, and he planned for it accordingly. In Genesis 3:15 he said he'd be sending a Messiah. He knew man would be sinful. The Flood was a "type" pointing forward to the Messiah....when Jesus would redeem mankind just as God saved Noah by the ark.
Here is a copy and paste from the NIV, whatever that means:
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
God responded to Noah's action by proclaiming, inwardly, that he would never again do such a thing. If he already knew he would never again do such a thing, he would not have had to proclaim it to himself. If he were doing it for Noah's benefit, he would have just said it out loud. He didn't. What he said afterward was out loud according to how I'm reading it, anyway:
“As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
But before he said that out loud he came to a decision. If he already knew exactly what would happen and what will happen until the end of time, what decision would there be to make?
I don't believe we can call it a "mistake". He knew it would happen, and he planned for it accordingly. In Genesis 3:15 he said he'd be sending a Messiah. He knew man would be sinful. The Flood was a "type" pointing forward to the Messiah....when Jesus would redeem mankind just as God saved Noah by the ark.
Then why afterward did He come to a decision never to do it again (first in his heart, then out loud so Noah would know)? If he already knew everything (and knows everything), wouldn't He have also known that He would never again produce a flood, before He produced the Great Flood?
Here is a copy and paste from the NIV, whatever that means:
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
God responded to Noah's action by proclaiming, inwardly, that he would never again do such a thing. If he already knew he would never again do such a thing, he would not have had to proclaim it to himself. If he were doing it for Noah's benefit, he would have just said it out loud. He didn't. What he said afterward was out loud according to how I'm reading it, anyway:
“As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
But before he said that out loud he came to a decision. If he already knew exactly what would happen and what will happen until the end of time, what decision would there be to make?
Ugh. I need tea.
It's an anthropomorphism. It's a way of describing it in human terms. That's it.
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and that's what really matters.
) then I could try and try and then be denied...how absolutely heartbreaking and horrible. And how horrible and heartless to think of a God sitting there and watching that, all the while planning a special roasting pan just for me. 
