Jesus' Last Words. (priest, Jewish, God, Christians)
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Psalm 22 is not a Christian fabrication. The Scripture itself will lead you to "think so".
John 19:24
“Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”
It's a lead here to show that the crucifixion is related to Psalm 22. As for how many verses are related, you need to read and figure it out, as a prophecy usually does a similar effect as the parables in that it allows the believed to believe and unbelieved to disbelieve.
Matthew 13:12
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
Psalm 22 is not a Christian fabrication. The Scripture itself will lead you to "think so".
John 19:24
“Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”
It's a lead here to show that the crucifixion is related to Psalm 22. As for how many verses are related, you need to read and figure it out, as a prophecy usually does a similar effect as the parables in that it allows the believed to believe and unbelieved to disbelieve.
Matthew 13:12
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
It is not surprising that the gospel writers, seeing Psalm 22 would be struck by how well bits of it would seem to fit a crucifixion even though being surrounded by strong bulls of Bashan with ravening mouths is better related to a ruler with a lot of hostile armies to deal with than a cruxifixion victim with a couple of Roman auxiliaries doing their job.
The casting of lots for clothing is found in all the four gospels, so it is obviously a basic and early element in the crucifixion account, but is it true? There are examples of the evangelists referring to OT scripture as prophecy of the events of the gospels, but there is also evidence that it is the scripture that comes first and the event comes later. Note the 'prophecy' in Matthew 2.18 of the massacre at Bethlehem - which we can say with considerable confidence never actually happened.
With that in mind, consider the discrepant accounts of the death of Judas, both based on prophetic borrowings but needing to be freely reinterpreted and rewritten to fit the conflicting death accounts they had devised.
Once we see the trick, we can see how the piercing of hands and feet looks so much like a crucifixion (the counting of ribs is rather passed over) and we get this playing about with vinegar and gall in the wine which the evangelists can't decide is soldiers' army issue wine or some substance put in it just to be nasty.
When we are aware of the method, we have to wonder whether the episode of leg - breaking in John, which is totally ignored by the other writers, is some invention of John, based on the scripture he found about bones not being broken, so we get an elaborate tale about how the leg- breaking wasn't done because they thought Jesus was dead already. They had their orders and would have broken the legs, dead or not. John is frankly silly in his efforts to strain prophecy fulfillment out of the Jesus story, even some people not believing in Jesus is cast as a barely relevant bit of Isaiah and Caiaphas for heavens' sake is suddenly inspired to prophecy in the course of making an administrative decision to do away with a trouble -maker.
Once we understand that the evangelists based their fulfilled prophecy on the OT text rather than finding the OT text that -to their amazement - predicted just what was in the gospel account they had written, we can see the trick and won't be fooled (1) into believing these or any other 'Jesus fulfilled prophecy' claims.
So to get back ti the 'Last words', we already see that the evangelists don't agree on what was said and I recall that I proposed that all that was in the original common story was that Jesus expired with a cry, or perhaps a gasp. While it is noted that the 'Eli, Eli' quote is uncommon in being a bit of Aramaic, against this is it being odd that Jesus would speak Aramaic rather than Hebrew in which he would normally recite OT scripture. And quoting Psalms was what he is shown as doing, which is also odd.
We also noted (I hope we did) that Luke the synoptic doesn't know if it, so that looks like Mark/Matthew 'M' material which found its way later on into the synoptic account, just as later (and very questionable) 'Q' material found its way into Matthew and Luke and indeed some later sayings about Jesus got into John and Luke (the appearance to the disciples on the Sunday evening and showing his war -wounds and the eating of a bit of fish - which John places days later in Galilee anyway(2). Bearing all that in mind,the Psalms quote doesn't look all that reliable after all.
(1) unless we dearly want to be.
(2) Including the miraculous haul of fish, which Luke adds to the calling of the disciples (Luke 5.4). Do you begin to perceive how the evangelists went about their writing?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-26-2012 at 10:28 PM..
That's hardly likely--mainly because Jesus of Nazareth never actually claimed to be the son of God in so many words. He may not have tried very hard to dissuade anyone else from saying so, but he himself never made the claim. (That would have been tantamount to sacrilege according to Roman law, which of course was in force in Palestine in those days. So as long as he wasn't interested in being arrested for that crime, he wasn't making any such claims).
Yes, he wasn't arrested and tried for the crime of sacrilege, as many likely wanted him to suffer for anyway since most traditional xenophobes hate cult leaders, but for the crime of sedition (by starting a faction/secretive sect, which aided and supported the Zealot terrorists and Atheism against the conquering Roman religion) for allowing his followers to call and pretend him the King of the Jews (Messiah) instead of honoring the Caesar.
Methinks you have been watching too much Da Vinci code and other nonsense like that. I see no reason to believe the Gospels embellished anything there.
Interesting tidbit, the word pagan simply means "rural" in Roman Latin.
God. Scripture is God-breathed. The apostles and Gospel writers were inspired by God.
And you don't think that the Mahabharata (The Kings' Greatness) and the Bhagavad Gita (The Divine Lord's Song) where God-breathed?
Idol scriptures mean nothing to us scholars of this world (except perhaps a challenge to understand and prove them wrong *think, scientific books and ideas*).
Now, in the christian idol scriptures, does Jesus always say the same last words? I think not...
Do this character's last words always come from Psalms 22? Seems like it to me.
I don't think the judeo-pagan (Christian) converts desperately searched to find something in the OT to fit their "last sacrifice" and resurrection themes for their logo's last words; The terrorist Zealots within the Christian ranks were already searching desperately for another Messiah like King David to set them free from the influence of a Goliath like the Roman Empire.
Of course the main Character, being a supposed Messiah, would quote from Messiah David's Psalms, what else would he quote to give him a little bit of Davidian legitimacy?
And you don't think that the Mahabharata (The Kings' Greatness) and the Bhagavad Gita (The Divine Lord's Song) where God-breathed?
Nope.
Quote:
Idol scriptures mean nothing to us scholars of this world (except perhaps a challenge to understand and prove them wrong *think, scientific books and ideas*).
I don't consider them "idol scriptures"...but I honestly don't care what you believe on it. You either believe the truth or not.
Now, in the christian idol scriptures, does Jesus always say the same last words? I think not...
Do this character's last words always come from Psalms 22? Seems like it to me.
Huh? Are you asking do all 4 Gospels record him saying it? No. But then, the 4 Gospels don't present themselves as exhaustive sources of everything he said or did.
Quote:
I don't think the judeo-pagan (Christian) converts desperately searched to find something in the OT to fit their "last sacrifice" and resurrection themes for their logo's last words; The terrorist Zealots within the Christian ranks were already searching desperately for another Messiah like King David to set them free from the influence of a Goliath like the Roman Empire.
Jesus himself taught them everything the OT said about him, and the NT scriptures are clear that He is the propitiation for our sin.
Quote:
Of course the main Character, being a supposed Messiah, would quote from Messiah David's Psalms, what else would he quote to give him a little bit of Davidian legitimacy?
I don't consider them "idol scriptures"...but I honestly don't care what you believe on it. You either believe the truth or not.
Well you just slipped in the reputation scale...
There is nothing, and I mean nothing that confirms the truthiness or superiority of Abrahamic narrative over any other.
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- predicted just what was in the gospel account they had written, we can see the trick and won't be fooled (1) into believing these or any other 'Jesus fulfilled prophecy' claims.
