Can a rich man go to heaven? (salvation, souls, translation)
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needles used to be bigger back in the day (I kid you not, this was the answer from my well-off Sunday-school talker).
Or maybe Jesus was being really hyperbolic, you know, like he was about everything else.
BTW, I thought the line was "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven"
The needle would be an ordinary needle. The "camel" is actually a mistranslation of the word "rope."
Thus, it would be easier to thread a rope through an ordinary needle than for a rich man to completely surrounder himself to God.
What we can see from the viewpoint of Jesus' world is that Judaism stressed the need to be pure before the eyes of God. In order to be pure, a man--not a woman, who was devoid of a soul to be saved anyway--had to ensure that he walked in the Law correctly and kept himself pure through ritual. Whatever he allowed to pass through his mouth also had the potential to cause him to be impure.
Also, the Law prohibited the devout Jew from associating with certain people and professions. Thus, a really devout Jew would never entertain the thought of associating with another Jew who was also a butcher. The mere presence of a Jewish butcher would cause him to be unclean.
While we are given the impression that only poor people, needy people, destitute people, and depressed people followed Jesus everywhere he went, those who heard him preach and followed him cut across all social strata.
The problem of the day wasn't much different from what we have in our society today. For example, those folks blessed with riches support wealth distribution among all--except for what they have. They are willing, for example, to take your money and pass it around, but hands off on their own stash.
But "rich" is not necessarily limited to just wealth. It implies the idea of self-importance. Wealth can come in coin of health, friends, knowledge, and the like. What Jesus was pointing out here was the ME-ism inherent within our frames, minds, et al is the great stumbling block to the meaning of life, the existence of life, and how people should live this life.
It is in conjunction with the command: Love one another unconditionally. When a person cannot love another person based on personal bias, then he becomes the "rich man." But when a person tries to follow the philosophy that Jesus was spreading around, then he is more in line with the Will or Work of God.
When we studied this passage at seminary we were taught a camel was a camel but the eye of the needle was one of the gates into Jerusalem. If a man was riding a camel they could not fit through the gate and ride into the city. They had to get off of the camel, and walk it through - thereby making them on equal ground and footing with the lower class, who didn't have a camel to ride into the city.
The OP stated it was impossible for a rich man to go to heaven. But heaven is not what Jesus spoke about.
Mat_19:24 Yet again, I am saying to you that it is easier for a camel
to be entering through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be
entering into the kingdom of God." (Concordant Literal New Testament)
The kingdom of God is the kingdom which is to be set up in Israel by Christ.
Jesus did not say it is impossible but that it is just harder for a rich man to be entering into that kingdom.
I remember as a young man reading this:
“All things (e.g., a camel’s journey through
A needle’s eye) are possible, it’s true,
But picture how the camel feels, drawn out
In one long, bloody thread from tail to snout.”
—attributed to C. S. Lewis
Jesus did not say it is impossible but that it is just harder for a rich man to be entering into that kingdom.
And my bookie back in 1992 didn't think that it was impossible for Angola to beat the Dream Team when he said that the odds were "Bout like ya's snowball in fracking hell!"
The needle would be an ordinary needle. The "camel" is actually a mistranslation of the word "rope."
Thus, it would be easier to thread a rope through an ordinary needle than for a rich man to completely surrounder himself to God.
What we can see from the viewpoint of Jesus' world is that Judaism stressed the need to be pure before the eyes of God. In order to be pure, a man--not a woman, who was devoid of a soul to be saved anyway--had to ensure that he walked in the Law correctly and kept himself pure through ritual. Whatever he allowed to pass through his mouth also had the potential to cause him to be impure.
Also, the Law prohibited the devout Jew from associating with certain people and professions. Thus, a really devout Jew would never entertain the thought of associating with another Jew who was also a butcher. The mere presence of a Jewish butcher would cause him to be unclean.
While we are given the impression that only poor people, needy people, destitute people, and depressed people followed Jesus everywhere he went, those who heard him preach and followed him cut across all social strata.
The problem of the day wasn't much different from what we have in our society today. For example, those folks blessed with riches support wealth distribution among all--except for what they have. They are willing, for example, to take your money and pass it around, but hands off on their own stash.
But "rich" is not necessarily limited to just wealth. It implies the idea of self-importance. Wealth can come in coin of health, friends, knowledge, and the like. What Jesus was pointing out here was the ME-ism inherent within our frames, minds, et al is the great stumbling block to the meaning of life, the existence of life, and how people should live this life.
It is in conjunction with the command: Love one another unconditionally. When a person cannot love another person based on personal bias, then he becomes the "rich man." But when a person tries to follow the philosophy that Jesus was spreading around, then he is more in line with the Will or Work of God.
"ordinary needles" were actually bigger back then, that's not a lie. A rope would easily fit through since their ropes weren't like our ropes but were smaller. (Yay! now you can keep loving your gold instead of the Holy Spirit; Jesus might as well have said nothing on that front, and it would be the same).
The whole book is a giant mistranslation. And your "Holy Spirit" didn't reveal that . It was actually scholarly work (if its a real mistranslation) that revealed it was a mistranslation. could you give me the source for your idea, are you sure that "kamilos (cable/rope)" is not a new word that was made after the fact in order to make it seem like Jesus was talking about ropes instead of the common Jewish saying of "elephants, tents and camels".
Quote:
Judaism
The Babylonian Talmud applies the aphorism to unthinkable thoughts. To explain that dreams reveal the thoughts of a man's heart, the product of reason rather than the absence of it, the rabbis say:
They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle.[1] A Midrash on the Song of Songs uses the phrase to speak of God's willingness and ability beyond comparison, to accomplish the salvation of a sinner:
The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and [camels?].[2]
Christianity
"The eye of a needle" is part of a saying of Jesus recorded in the synoptic gospels:
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew19:23-24Parallel versions appear in Mark10:24-25, and Luke18:24-25.
The saying was a response to a young rich man who had asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus replied that he should keep the commandments, to which the man stated he had done. Jesus responded, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The young man became sad and was unwilling to do this. Jesus then spoke this response, leaving his disciples astonished.
The "eye of a needle" has been interpreted as a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could only pass through this smaller gate if it was stooped and had its baggage removed. This story has been put forth since at least the 15th century, and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no evidence for the existence of such a gate.[3][4]
Variations on this story include that of ancient inns having small entrances to thwart thieves, or a story of an old mountain pass known as the "eye of the needle", so narrow that merchants would have to dismount from their camels and were thus were more vulnerable to waiting brigands. There is no historical evidence for any of these, either. Cyril of Alexandria claimed that "camel" is a Greek misprint; that kamêlos (camel) was a misprint of kamilos, meaning "rope" or "cable".[2][5]However evidence for such a Greek term is weak, there is little or no Greek manuscript support, and it goes against the standard principle of textual criticism that errors tend to happen towards the easier reading, not against it.
Islam
According to the English interpretation of the Quran:
To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.[6]
The rich people keep trying to excuse themselves, this will be Jesus' answer: "you didn't keep the commandments (613+ of them), you didn't purify yourself before calling upon me? I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME"
In context Jesus simply contradicted himself, because originally all he said was that the rich man just needed to follow the commandments (613+ of them), and if he wanted to be perfect then he needed to depart form his wealth/money, then he said that (in the very least) it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, yet the man followed all the commandments, so he was already going to inherit immorality, it was not hard for him. the rich man wasn't perfect, but he was in the Kingdom of God by following the commandments. Still, it is pure hypocrisy to not want to be pure and perfect for God. You can also excuse money hoarding by pointing to the Jewish idea that God can make tents and camels pass through needles eyes. (After all, David and Solomon weren't poor either).
Also, the idea of imperfect people going to God's/Angels' dwelling was unthinkable (basically because any "purification process" would kill the real you), the pagan Romans were the ones who though that "souls/spirits" were immediately upon death sent to enjoy heaven or be punished in hell. Some Jews agreed with these pagan ideas, but the well educated majority believed in either an "Earthly Kingdom while alive" or a "Earthly Kingdom for all once resuscitated"
The descendants of gentile pagans seem rather too quick to excuse themselves then to follow the LAW safely (By NOT KILLING AT ALL, By giving up all possessions, By being exactly like Children, By not thinking sinful thoughts, By Being more righteous than Rabbis, and all the rest of jesus' necessary commandments in order to be resurrected. )
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 07-27-2012 at 11:39 AM..
"For instance, I remember well how, many years ago, it was explained to me that the "eye of a needle" was an oriental
expression for the small side door in the walls of cities, which were used at night, after the gates were closed. No camel
could get through with a load. It would have to be taken off." (Unsearchable Riches, vol.24, p.138).
And so the idea is that a rich man, with all his possessions will likewise find it hard to get into the kingdom of God.
Just as it would be necessary to unload the camel to get through the small side door of the city, so the rich man will have to let
go of his possessions to get in.
Last edited by Eusebius; 07-27-2012 at 12:46 PM..
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. It was actually scholarly work (if its a real mistranslation) that revealed it was a mistranslation. could you give me the source for your idea, are you sure that "kamilos (cable/rope)" is not a new word that was made after the fact in order to make it seem like Jesus was talking about ropes instead of the common Jewish saying of "elephants, tents and camels". 
