Wavering faith/agnosticism - stuck between a rock and a hard place (Buddhist, church)

[Trimac20]

Is this just the worst position to be in, for your soul's and your mental/physical health?

To:

(a) have a fear of non-existence after death

But at the same time, a still lingering fear of divine punishment after death for immorality or unbelief.

But:

(b) Not be 100% convinced there is an afterlife and;

(c) not be satisfied with the picture of the afterlife your holy book, church teaches you.

(d) long for something more, then feel guilty for thinking you 'know better than God'.

(e) feel hopeless about the human condition here on earth, and the Problem of Existence in general, and yet feel even MORE hopeless about an afterlife where 90% of people will either go 'poof' into nothingness or go to some eternal torture chamber.

There just is no way out of this quandry...

Stronger faith just means, greater fear of death and feeling worse for other people

Weaker faith makes one more depressed/hopeless/nihilistic. Some atheists can find joy in life, I truly question whether I could. Besides, I'm not inclined to atheism.



So best option appears to explore other possibilities. Universalism is the most attractive, I admit. But there's also beliefs about more benign afterlifes.


I'm sure this is common among weak believers, agnostics, even atheists who truly want to believe in God. At least one or two of the points I mention above.

I so want to believe in Universalism, but I hate the fact it's 'not in the Bible' or when other Christians call it a heresy.

If not Universalism I so want there to be a 'second chance' for non-believers...but Revelations brims with revenge.

Then I question God's character, if there really is a God like this. I have an 'ideal' view of God much it's a projection of what I'd LIKE God to be. Should I humble myself to the picture of God portrayed in the Bible then? What if I don't like what I see some of the time? One time I thought I was doomed for blaspheming the Holy Spirit in thought.

Now you see why I wish I was never born/never existed...please pray for me! I don't want too much pity, I just wish things were different.

Some people aren't bothered by this...am I so alone? Honestly?

I used to wonder...what the chance of me 'not really being saved' was...add the chance of there being a literal place of punishment, add the chance that none of it is true and just nothingness.

Then maybe oblivion would be preferable, but after you've tasted death, it's even the THOUGHT of it is so unbearable! Eternity is painful!

What is wrong with Existence, why is it so fudged up?

Why've we strayed from the path, or why was it created so flawed?

I don't understand any of it ! Why is it so hard? And yet I cling to the hope that God will reveal it all, and it will be glorious, and all this will fade away like chaff...

Maybe life is easier for those raised atheist/buddhist.etc...

For those who are suffering, I pray for you. For those who have found peace, I am so happy for you. I don't envy you at all, it's better that others are happy even if I'm miserable.

Good vibes to all! Don't mean to dampen your day again.

[SeekerSA]

You have probably come to the realisation like many of us did, when all the pomp and ceremony is over, you are still all alone.

UR IMO just demonstrates the way people reinvent stuff to deal with irrationality. It is a stepping stone to the cold reality of atheism few are willing to admit or take. You are (no pun) left still with all the other inconsistencies and have to ess. make up a belief that fits your convictions, this is again just proof that it is all made up and in one's head.

Facing the prospect of death and your mortality and coming to terms with that fact is probably the hardest part of deconversion. You are in the process of denial.

There is a whole process to change and the last is acceptance. It does take time

If you find yourself as where you describe it, join us at ex-Chritian.net. there are oodles of extimonies and how people came to deal with these very issues. You will find a lot of support and encouragement there to help you through the process. Not all are atheists and some even have other spiritual philosophies you may lean to. It is very global with folk from places even like China, Korea, Japan, Russia and so on. There is a universal pattern. There are many ex pastors there to and you will find answers to most if not all your questions.

Life is a journey, we are supposed to enjoy the ride not struggle with invisible demons and entities.

[Ilene Wright]

Trimac, I understand completely where you're coming from. Although I think you still have some faith, whereas I don't. What you are going through is a long process of questioning and doubt but it WILL get better. I was forced into not thinking about it so much recently because so many other things in my life went absolutely haywire.

But it made me realize that I'm okay with where I'm at now.....okay with the NOT knowing. The hardest part for me is not having a "god" to lean on, whether he is real or not it's a coping mechanism and I'm still struggling to figure out how to handle things on my own. Actually, I've been doing that all along I just didn't realize it. We all are, but it's a mental thing and comforting to think there is someone/something out there helping us along. It's quite a loss.

You mentioned Universalism and how it's not biblical......actually it is. There are many scriptures to support it and I would recommend that you look into it further. It sure did help me sort through things and gives the bible god a whole new perspective. If there is a god, I like to think that he's all about love and forgiveness like Universalism teaches. Otherwise I would not care to know/worship a god that appears to have a serious personality disorder like some of the bible portrays.

I guess I have evolved into an atheist these days because there is absolutely no evidence for a god, nothing or no one can prove his existence. I don't have that blind faith that I once had, and that's what it takes to be a believer. You'll be okay Trimac, it just takes some time. Try not to stress yourself too much because if there is a god, he would be very understanding of your questions and doubt like the god of Universalism. Hang in there.

[sanspeur]

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles

[hljc]

Jesus said in the Bible from Matthew 7:24-27....``Who so ever hears these sayings of mine and does them , I WILL liken him to a wise man , which built his house and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock......And every one that hears these saying of mine and does them not , will be likened to a foolish man , which built his house on the sand.... And the rain came , and the winds blew, and beat on that house and it fell, and great was the fall of it``....... See you can take a look at the Lord Jesus and see how small you can make him, and you can ask in faith and if he is not fast for your expectation then you can walk away and adopt the denier false prophet ideas.... or you can take Jesus ideas a repent and ask Jesus to come into your life and never give up seeking the face of God on Jesus ideas , which will put you on the rock of Christ with full securities In Christ with the only Living God Where the only life comes ..... Be Blessed and reject the deniers of Jesus name....

[hiker45]

OK, you gotta admit this modern world is amazing.

A guy from Western Australia asks some questions, and then a guy from South Africa and a lady from South Carolina and another guy from Canada give him some answers.

Then a bible-thumper puts in his 2 cents and another guy from Canada gives a great retort.

I love it.

[looking4answers12]

So...you kinda believe in God, but not completely. YOu wish you believed in heaven, but you think that if it did exist, it's not all that great, from the descriptions you've read or heard.

Is that about right?

You're stressing about what's going to happen to you (or not happen to you) when you are no longer here. I'm I understanding this okay?

I know I am probably oversimplifying and I'm sorry if this is not helpful. But, the way I feel is that we should worry more about TODAY and NOW and how we are treating people and how we are living right now. Appreciate every moment of life whenever possible. Yeah, there will be times that REALLY SUCK. But then after a while, if you hang tough, you will have some times that could be pretty damn great.

As for religion...believing or not believing. Going to the bad place for not believing, or not going anywhere if there is no good or bad place.

If God wants you to know his presence, you eventually will. He will understand your moments of doubt. Everybody has them. I suspect even those who claim they don't, have them.

If there is nothing there and you believe. what's the harm? You aren't going to know you were wrong cuz you'll be dead!

If your NOT gonna believe at all (and God forgive me for saying this). You might as well make the best of it and do what you wanna do while your still living and enjoy this life to the best of your ability.

My conclusion is pretty much this. Regardless of what you believe, don't believe or aren't sure about. You gotta enjoy your life NOW. The rest will take care of itself in due time.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Is this just the worst position to be in, for your soul's and your mental/physical health?

To:

(a) have a fear of non-existence after death

But at the same time, a still lingering fear of divine punishment after death for immorality or unbelief.

But:

(b) Not be 100% convinced there is an afterlife and;

(c) not be satisfied with the picture of the afterlife your holy book, church teaches you.

(d) long for something more, then feel guilty for thinking you 'know better than God'.

(e) feel hopeless about the human condition here on earth, and the Problem of Existence in general, and yet feel even MORE hopeless about an afterlife where 90% of people will either go 'poof' into nothingness or go to some eternal torture chamber.

There just is no way out of this quandry...

Stronger faith just means, greater fear of death and feeling worse for other people

Weaker faith makes one more depressed/hopeless/nihilistic. Some atheists can find joy in life, I truly question whether I could. Besides, I'm not inclined to atheism.



So best option appears to explore other possibilities. Universalism is the most attractive, I admit. But there's also beliefs about more benign afterlifes.


I'm sure this is common among weak believers, agnostics, even atheists who truly want to believe in God. At least one or two of the points I mention above.

I so want to believe in Universalism, but I hate the fact it's 'not in the Bible' or when other Christians call it a heresy.

If not Universalism I so want there to be a 'second chance' for non-believers...but Revelations brims with revenge.

Then I question God's character, if there really is a God like this. I have an 'ideal' view of God much it's a projection of what I'd LIKE God to be. Should I humble myself to the picture of God portrayed in the Bible then? What if I don't like what I see some of the time? One time I thought I was doomed for blaspheming the Holy Spirit in thought.

Now you see why I wish I was never born/never existed...please pray for me! I don't want too much pity, I just wish things were different.

Some people aren't bothered by this...am I so alone? Honestly?

I used to wonder...what the chance of me 'not really being saved' was...add the chance of there being a literal place of punishment, add the chance that none of it is true and just nothingness.

Then maybe oblivion would be preferable, but after you've tasted death, it's even the THOUGHT of it is so unbearable! Eternity is painful!

What is wrong with Existence, why is it so fudged up?

Why've we strayed from the path, or why was it created so flawed?

I don't understand any of it ! Why is it so hard? And yet I cling to the hope that God will reveal it all, and it will be glorious, and all this will fade away like chaff...

Maybe life is easier for those raised atheist/buddhist.etc...

For those who are suffering, I pray for you. For those who have found peace, I am so happy for you. I don't envy you at all, it's better that others are happy even if I'm miserable.

Good vibes to all! Don't mean to dampen your day again.

Glad you came here as you sure need to talk. I hope you don't get the godless trying to sell you atheism - we have a lot of agnostics and unreligious theists here, too. What's most important is to get to a place where you feel comfortable with what you believe and just keep talking until you have got to where you feel it makes sense.

If it helps at all, I don't believe any god worthy any respect is going to punish anyone for honestly using the brains they were given to think it through. I'd say: there's nothing to be afraid of. Just your own feelings.

[Lady Ice]

This is my personal philosophy which I will share with you over my morning coffee.

I believe that we have no path to take other than the one we create for ourselves. I think that for the sake of a happy and peaceful existence, we should try to live in harmony with those around us.

Don't waste your life demanding that a God that may or may not exist reveal itself to you. If there is a God it is certainly not the God of the bible or of any of the man made religions. The universe is simply too huge for such a small minded being to have any authority over. If there is some kind of intelligent creative force out there it is way beyond our scope of even trying to understand, it is not sitting in the clouds judging you on every little thing you do, that's just silly.

I only know one thing about an afterlife and that is that we don't know if there is one. There are two possible reasons for this:

- There is no afterlife

or

- We are not meant to know about it in order to get the most out of this life.

Either way, I don't think you should spend your life worrying too much about what scaremongers say. It is obvious to me that the organised religions have something to sell and they use fear to keep you away from the truth. The truth is that they don't know any more than you or I, they are running a business and fighting for worldly power.

If you are kind to people and genuinely care about them, if you go out of your way to help when you see a need, if you meet your obligations and not act like the world owes you something, if you learn to let go of loss and mistakes, and if you show your loved-ones everyday how happy you are that they are in your life, then you will have a happy life and at the end of it you will have no regrets. That is the best you can do and at the point of death if you honestly feel good about yourself, you will carry that into the next life if there is one. I honestly believe that if we do carry on in some form then our own conscience will be the guide as to where we go from there, we can't hide from what we truely think of ourselves. If there isn't anything after, well you've had a happy, fulfilled life and will be surrounded by people who genuinely care about you as you go. In the end that's all that really matters.

[TRANSPONDER]

I re- read the OP and note a particular concern about an afterlife. While I find that the evidence (or lack of it) does indicate there isn't one, there could be, but, as I said before, it isn't something to be afraid of.

If there is an afterlife, I do not believe that entry tickets are sold by one particular deity in exchange for worship, especially not the confused mix of partisanship and unfair discrimination that some religious believers see as the criterion for entry into heaven.

If something so important was dependent on behaviour, even if an instruction manual had been provided, the various versions of it and confusion about what it says would require some clarification - and what passes for 'clarification' is yet more confusion.

I cannot believe that the religious codes are other than the work of men and, if there is an afterlife, it is for all of us, in some way as natural as being born.

If there isn't one, then the best thing to do is make the most of the one we have. In a reverse of Pascal's wager, the best bet is to live our lives as though it was the only one we had. Any kind of afterlife would be a bonus.

As to god- belief, there may be one, but it can hardly be the god of ONE religion, let alone one subsect of it. That is surely the man- made view.

A god is more of a cosmic mind, perhaps a creator and perhaps we can make mental contact with it, but for...spiritual experience, let's say, development, rather than instructions on what to chant and where to put our plonkers.

The worship of such a deity is possible, though it hardly needs it. It is more because humans need it. But if belief in and reverence for such a cosmic being would help you to cope, by all means, go for it.

I don't know whether any of that is any use to you, Trimac, but I do hope so.