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Interesting...I sometimes think the honest position for self-proclamed athiests should be agnosticism since athiests have no definable proof that God DOESN'T exist.
The burden is on the person making the fantastic claim, not the one who doesn't believe it. Are you agnostic to unicorns and leprechauns? What about other religion's gods? Would you have to say then that you're agnostic towards them, or do you discount their existence?
Using your logic, that means that Christians should be agnostic as well since they have no definitive proof that God does exist.
But you are forgetting about faith...that is the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mels
All of the labeling is just silly. That is the problem with religion, everyone wants to put you in a neat box labeled as "X." I am thankful I am not part of it.
As you can see from my # of posts, I am frequently on this forum. I can tell you with absolute confidence, and also point you to the OP, that athiests/agnostics label just as much.
The burden is on the person making the fantastic claim, not the one who doesn't believe it. Are you agnostic to unicorns and leprechauns? What about other religion's gods? Would you have to say then that you're agnostic towards them, or do you discount their existence?
IMO it is self-evident, by opening my eyes and experiencing each new day, that a Creator exists. It is not self-evident that unicorns and leprechauns exist.
What is self-evident is you use logic when it serves your needs and abandon it when it doesn't.
Logic - "self-proclamed athiests should be agnosticism since athiests have no definable proof that God DOESN'T exist."
Faith - "it is self-evident, by opening my eyes and experiencing each new day, that a Creator exists"
It's like some sort of child's game where you enter the fray, make a swipe, then when pressed run back to the bible and call "safe".
What is self-evident is you use logic when it serves your needs and abandon it when it doesn't.
Logic - "self-proclamed athiests should be agnosticism since athiests have no definable proof that God DOESN'T exist."
Faith - "it is self-evident, by opening my eyes and experiencing each new day, that a Creator exists"
It's like some sort of child's game where you enter the fray, make a swipe, then when pressed run back to the bible and call "safe".
Um....okay. Don't know what that was all about....
Your opinion is duly noted. I wasn't making a "swipe", I was simply stating what I believe, as you and everyone else does on these forums.
I personally believe agnosticism is probably a more honest position than athiesm. To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge"
You disagree. Understood.
I believe it is self-evident that there is a Creator, or Supreme Being, and to me, it takes very little faith to see what is plain in this regard. IMO science and mankind's intellegence are constantly evolving and changing. We have not reached our pinnacle of understanding and knowledge, and up until 200 years ago science as we know it scarcely existed. I find it foolish to place all my eggs in the basket of mankind's current understanding of life as we know it. We have been wrong before and we will be wrong again.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job.
The burden is on the person making the fantastic claim, not the one who doesn't believe it. Are you agnostic to unicorns and leprechauns? What about other religion's gods? Would you have to say then that you're agnostic towards them, or do you discount their existence?
Great analogy, and I absolutely agree... no offense Jeff, but I think you kinda missed his point.
Great analogy, and I absolutely agree... no offense Jeff, but I think you kinda missed his point.
Yeah, that happens frequently with PC and I...
Having previously been agnostic for a period of time, and now strongly believing in God, I simply can't identify with that perspective, because I've moved passed it. Not to condescend at all, but it's simply the truth. I simply see it as laughably absurd, much as the agnostic or athiest views faith in God.
Again, God's existance is self-evident IMO. If someone can't see it, then there is no use in trying to prove anything to them...
For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without, no explanation is possible. -Thomas Aquinas
Still missing the point. By your logic, you'd have to be agnostic towards all other gods. If you say you "know" they don't exist due to faith, then you've thrown out logic. The rules of the game apply to me but not you because you can grab your bible and call "safe!".
If you're not going to play by the rules, you shouldn't play. In other words, don't use logic to say I should be an agnostic instead of an atheist if you're not going to accept the same rules for yourself.
Still missing the point. By your logic, you'd have to be agnostic towards all other gods. If you say you "know" they don't exist due to faith, then you've thrown out logic. The rules of the game apply to me but not you because you can grab your bible and call "safe!".
If you're not going to play by the rules, you shouldn't play. In other words, don't use logic to say I should be an agnostic instead of an atheist if you're not going to accept the same rules for yourself.
There are no other gods. What has Zeus done for me lately?
You forget that I am basing my statements on personal knowledge and experience with "a" God. God is not some abstract belief, He is real, and I know this because I have experienced Him. I don't base my beliefs in God on the Bible, but on my personal experience. In fact I have said numerous times in this forum that the Bible is flawed and my belief in a Supreme Being is not based on that alone...
There are no other gods. What has Zeus done for me lately?
You forget that I am basing my statements on personal knowledge and experience with "a" God. God is not some abstract belief, He is real, and I know this because I have experienced Him. I don't base my beliefs in God on the Bible, but on my personal experience. In fact I have said numerous times in this forum that the Bible is flawed and my belief in a Supreme Being is not based on that alone...
Jeff, I hate to instigate in this argument but how do you know Zeus hasn't done anything for you lately? I mean, this is the same kind of thing I hear from Christians all the time. Anytime something good happens in my life I am told that it must be God showing me what he's doing for me to get me to believe. Well, I say bullcrap. Most of the good things that happen in my life are because I've set myself up for them. Along with the bad. So again, prove to me that Zeus hasn't done anything for you lately. Perhaps he's trying to get you to see he really does want you to care about him. Does this argument sound familiar? Perhaps you should also sacrifice people because there's a chance the Aztec and Mayan God of the sun hasn't had his sacrifice in a while. Perhaps, you should also pray to Shiva. And to Ra. And to Baal. And to Thor. Because you can never be so sure as to which one is really doing the work. Perhaps they're ALL trying to tell you something!
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Don't know what that was all about....
, I was simply stating what I believe, as you and everyone else does on these forums. 
