Starlight: Another Nail in the coffin of a young earth theory?

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by ikester7579

I probably got it turned around. I'll have to research it. I don't have anyone proof reading what I put up because I'm the owner and webmaster. I do all animations etc..., so it can be very time consuming to do the work, much less be able to check it all. So I thank you for pointing that out. I'll look into it in the next week or two as time permits.



The subject is very interesting to me as well, and took me many months to figure it out. Because if God claims not to be a liar, and is the Creator. Then I figured there was something being missed. So that led me to start deciphering verses word by word. What I found is very complicated to explain. Not in the since that most would not understand, but in a since that my words may not be understood. So it's hard for me to express what I found, so you would have to bare with me.

Without reading the thread, I can guess that the main question is: How can the earth be less than 6 thousand years old, and have stars that shine upon the earth that are billions of light years away?

After reading many books on this, and being in many debates. I found myself basically getting no where in answering this question. I found that most of the creationist answers were done just to stave off the constant badgering of the evolutionists on this issue. Scientific possibilities do not always answer the question. I was looking for an answer that pointed more towards God because after all, the question is about His creation. And a Christian should be able to answer it, and the answer should glorify the Creator. None of the current answers did this. So I was not satisfied. So I went at it alone and totally dependent on God. Because I am no bible scholar.

To find the answers I was looking for required me to break down each word in every verse. Do whole bible searches to make sure I was getting the right meaning. This took me in directions that even shocked my peers. But they were biblically sound upon testing them. And they also could not find anything wrong biblically. So now you have the story of my journey of finding truth. And it still continues, and I'm still finding more stuff. Stuff that even amazes those more educated than I am in these areas.

And there is one important lesson I learned from my research that is probably more important to my faith than finding the answers to much of how creations works. And that is:

To many Christians rely on man's doctrine (man's interpretation) of what God's word says. Once we believe the doctrine, it soon dictates all truth to us. How? Imagine having committed a crime, and because the jury has seen stuff on the news. They have already made a decision about you even before hearing the evidence for and against you. Would that be fair?

Already believing a doctrine, is like already knowing what to think before God's word is even opened. How can the evidence in God's word speak to us, if we already have a pretty good idea of what's in it from what other men have told us? So I cleared my mind of all preconceived ideas about creation (that was not easy) to allow the word to speak for itself. What I found in one chapter was so complicated, it's mind boggling.

Before this post becomes to long and boring. I will post about the light issue with the next post about an hour from now. It will probably take about that long to put it all together. It's still not complete, but it's about 90% there. And it has taken me many months to do this. And I doubt you will find these ideas anywhere else.

Although I cannot criticize something you have not posted on yet, to give evidence of something being true because the bible says it is; is not going to be good enough for the atheists on here. Just giving you a heads up.

[ikester7579]

The thing that first set me on the right path to finding out how creation works, was pondering how eternity works.

2pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Here we have what it is like to be with God. God lives where? In eternity. And we of course live in non-eternal time. So if eternity has time, and non-eternity has time. What would make time in both different? Besides, how can you compare a realm that has time with one that does not, if eternal time truly is without time (see, I told ya it was going to be hard to put into words)?

Eternal time would have to be age-less. Because we all know what non-eternal time is, and the end result. So we have two time-lines. On time-line has an aging process, the other does not. So time passes in each. But what caused one time to be different from the other? Sin. Sin caused death. That is why this time-line has sin, and eternity does not.

But here is the kicker that most miss about the six days of creation. Because the first sin has not been committed yet, creation was actually done in eternal time. In other words, until the first sin on day six, there was only one time-line. So all of creation was done in eternal time, with the eternal time-line laws and rules. Which by the way, would be very different from the laws and rules we currently observe. And this answer the question as to why the creation is out of sync with out time-line. Our time-line laws did not apply.

So let's ponder some things for understanding of how creation would "have" to work in eternity.

1) Eternity is age-less.

This would mean that every thing created would have to be created with age already added to it.

Example: Adam and Eve were created with age. Why could not all matter in the universe be created with age? Why would it need to be this way during eternal time creation?

1) If the earth were created to be new and hot. If there is not aging process, when would it cool down so that life could exist upon it?

2) If the sun were created in a gas stage (new star forming). When would it become a stable star able to support life on this planet?

So you see, everything being created in eternity has to have these eternal laws applied. This is why a 4.5 billion year old earth was created 6 thousand years ago. An earth that age is required for life to exist upon it. Besides, how would we be able to understand how time affects everything if God created all things to date 6 thousand years old regardless of what state they were in?

Example: What if everything in the solar system dated exactly the same age? Would we be able to figure out how planets form through non-eternal time? Could we figure out how stars form? Nope.

Why would God create this way? God claimed to be the Alpha and Omega. So how else to show that He is this in His creation, but to show how He has control over time like as we see it? Does the bible support time with and without age during creation and after creation? Yep.

ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation Of the earth: and the heavens are the work Of thy hands.

mt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

There are two phrases used in God's word to show what is being talked about.

1) Of old=Things that have to do with things aged in eternal time that did not require time passage. And is the very reason time is not included in that phrase like it is below.

2) Of old time=Things aged with the passage of time. Time as we know it.

So now some of the laws of how eternity are understood, I'll move on to the next thing.

And it was so creation: Anytime you see the phrase "and it was so", means at one time it was not so. Simple. So let's apply it.

gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

The bible has the ability to use the word stars. But here, why is the word lights used? This was to show that the stars were producing light upon their placement in space. So here we have light producing objects. So the goal of these light producing objects was "to give light upon the earth". Now if the stars were already shining upon the earth, why state the reason they were created? It was because:

1) The light was not shining upon the earth upon their creation.
2) With the phrase "and it was so" was to show that they were made to.

How? Time that is age-less most allow this to happen. For how can a light year be measured if aging is not a process of how it is done?


Red Shift: The lengthening of the wavelength of electromagnetic radiation resulting from one or more of three causes:
1) Doppler redshift: resulting from bodies moving away from each other in space.
2) Gravitational redshift: resulting from strong gravitational fields.
3) Cosmological redshift: resulting from the expansion of space-time itself.


is 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

is 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

ps 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Creating something that already produces light, then stretching the heavens, which is expanding the heavens. Would give the light coming from these objects a red shift. And would also explain how our universe is expanding.

[ikester7579]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

Although I cannot criticize something you have not posted on yet, to give evidence of something being true because the bible says it is; is not going to be good enough for the atheists on here. Just giving you a heads up.

Have already been there and done that. Here is a page I have done on my experiences debating atheist:

Anticreationist debate tactics - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

Not that I would put all athiest into the categories on that page.

Thanks for the heads up though.

I guess links don't work?

[GCSTroop]

The more I read about YEC the more disheartening it is to me to see that people can actually believe in a such a twisted form of science. I can't really put into words the disbelief that I feel when all common sense and logic are thrown out the window to prove a young earth. I don't know... I think I'll stop posting on the YEC threads. It's like trying to argue with someone that the sky is blue and they keep telling you it's brown despite all the empirical evidence against the sky being brown. I guess I feel the same way with this particular argument. In short, I'm burned out on it.

[ikester7579]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

The more I read about YEC the more disheartening it is to me to see that people can actually believe in a such a twisted form of science. I can't really put into words the disbelief that I feel when all common sense and logic are thrown out the window to prove a young earth. I don't know... I think I'll stop posting on the YEC threads. It's like trying to argue with someone that the sky is blue and they keep telling you it's brown despite all the empirical evidence against the sky being brown. I guess I feel the same way with this particular argument. In short, I'm burned out on it.

Does not science believe there could be a parallel unvierse? What do you think heaven is?

As far as being burned out on it, I can relate. I often ask atheist why they feel the need to debate a religious belief, and then complain about it. I have yet to get a good answer for it.

One thing I found out about the subject of creation. If you want to debate atheists and evolutionists. Just put up a forum on creation. Or one that has a creation section. And the debates will begin.