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Below is an article that I recently wrote. It concerns the Omega Point cosmology by physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler, which is a proof of God's existence based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics). For anyone who has ever wondered about such questions as what the meaning of life is, what the purpose of their own life is, whether there is life after death, whether God exists, what the future holds for humanity, and why anything exists at all as opposed to nothingness, then this article answers all of those questions using the known laws of physics.
This article further provides an examination of the globalist political power-elite: history is given on their organizational structure and their methods of accumulating power; and analysis is given on where they're attempting to take the world, i.e., their self-termed New World Order world government and world religion.
The article furnishes documentation on what the globalist oligarchy's ultimate goal is. This ultimate goal of theirs most popularly goes by the name of transhumanism: immortality through technology. However, I explain in the article that the coming radical life-extension technologies create a fundamental dilemma for the oligarchs, which is why they must dominate world society before such technology becomes a reality. The details of that dilemma are explained in Sec. 8.2.2: "The Mark of the Beast" of the article.
Thus, this article explains to people what is to occur and why it is to occur, so that they will not be in ignorance as to the events that are to unfold.
Below one can download the article for free. I encourage everyone to generously share this article with others. By all means, please save it to your hard-drive and give others copies of it. Also, feel free to share the text of this post. The article is in PDF format.
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ABSTRACT: Analysis is given of the Omega Point cosmology, an extensively peer-reviewed proof (i.e., mathematical theorem) published in leading physics journals by professor of physics and mathematics Frank J. Tipler, which demonstrates that in order for the known laws of physics to be mutually consistent, the universe must diverge to infinite computational power as it collapses into a final cosmological singularity, termed the Omega Point. The theorem is an intrinsic component of the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) describing and unifying all the forces in physics, of which itself is also required by the known physical laws. With infinite computational resources, the dead can be resurrected--never to die again--via perfect computer emulation of the multiverse from its start at the Big Bang. Miracles are also physically allowed via electroweak quantum tunneling controlled by the Omega Point cosmological singularity. The Omega Point is a different aspect of the Big Bang cosmological singularity--the first cause--and the Omega Point has all the haecceities claimed for God in the traditional religions.
From this analysis, conclusions are drawn regarding the social, ethical, economic and political implications of the Omega Point cosmology.
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Below are other places where this article can be downloaded:
Note that the above publication date, the total page count, the file byte size, and the MD5 checksum are subject to change with newer versions of the article, if I were to release such.
The URLs to my Theophysics websites should contain the latest version of the article. With the WebCite URLs ( http://www.webcitation.org ), one can look to see if there is a newer version of this article on the drop-down menu containing the date. Also look at the postings in this forum to see if I have published updated URLs to newer versions of this article, assuming I am unable to update this post.
Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology has been peer-reviewed and published in a number of the world's leading physics and science journals.[1] Even NASA itself has peer-reviewed his Omega Point cosmology and found it correct according to the known laws of physics (see below). No refutation of it exists within the peer-reviewed scientific literature, or anywhere else for that matter.
Below are some of the peer-reviewed papers in science and physics journals wherein Prof. Tipler has published his Omega Point cosmology:
* Frank J. Tipler, "Cosmological Limits on Computation", International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 25, No. 6 (June 1986), pp. 617-661, doi:10.1007/BF00670475, bibcode: 1986IJTP...25..617T. http://www.webcitation.org/64KHgOccs (First paper on the Omega Point cosmology.)
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Anthropic Principle: A Primer for Philosophers", in Arthur Fine and Jarrett Leplin (Eds.), PSA 1988: Proceedings of the 1988 Biennial Meeting of the Philosophy of Science Association, Volume Two: Symposia and Invited Papers (East Lansing, Mich.: Philosophy of Science Association, 1989), pp. 27-48, ISBN 091758628X.
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Omega Point as Eschaton: Answers to Pannenberg's Questions for Scientists", Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science, Vol. 24, Issue 2 (June 1989), pp. 217-253, doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.1989.tb01112.x. Republished as Chapter 7: "The Omega Point as Eschaton: Answers to Pannenberg's Questions to Scientists" in Carol Rausch Albright and Joel Haugen (editors), Beginning with the End: God, Science, and Wolfhart Pannenberg (Chicago, Ill.: Open Court Publishing Company, 1997), pp. 156-194, ISBN 0812693256, LCCN 97000114. http://www.webcitation.org/5nY0aytpz
* Frank J. Tipler, "The ultimate fate of life in universes which undergo inflation", Physics Letters B, Vol. 286, Issues 1-2 (July 23, 1992), pp. 36-43, doi:10.1016/0370-2693(92)90155-W, bibcode: 1992PhLB..286...36T. http://www.webcitation.org/64Uskd785
* Frank J. Tipler, "A New Condition Implying the Existence of a Constant Mean Curvature Foliation", bibcode: 1993dgr2.conf..306T, in B. L. Hu and T. A. Jacobson (editors), Directions in General Relativity: Proceedings of the 1993 International Symposium, Maryland, Volume 2: Papers in Honor of Dieter Brill (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993), pp. 306-315, ISBN 0521452678, bibcode: 1993dgr2.conf.....H. http://www.webcitation.org/5qbXJZiX5
* Frank J. Tipler, "There Are No Limits To The Open Society", Critical Rationalist, Vol. 3, No. 2 (September 23, 1998). http://www.webcitation.org/5sFYkHgSS
* Frank J. Tipler, "Ultrarelativistic Rockets and the Ultimate Future of the Universe", NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop Proceedings, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, January 1999, pp. 111-119; an invited paper in the proceedings of a conference held at and sponsored by NASA Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio, August 12-14, 1997; doi:2060/19990023204. Document ID: 19990023204. Report Number: E-11429; NAS 1.55:208694; NASA/CP-1999-208694. http://www.webcitation.org/5zPq69I0O Full proceedings volume: http://www.webcitation.org/5zPsZWvmz
* Frank J. Tipler, Jessica Graber, Matthew McGinley, Joshua Nichols-Barrer and Christopher Staecker, "Closed Universes With Black Holes But No Event Horizons As a Solution to the Black Hole Information Problem", arXiv:gr-qc/0003082, March 20, 2000. http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0003082 Published in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 379, Issue 2 (August 2007), pp. 629-640, doi:10.1111/j.1365-2966.2007.11895.x, bibcode: 2007MNRAS.379..629T. http://www.webcitation.org/5vQ3M8uxB
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Ultimate Future of the Universe, Black Hole Event Horizon Topologies, Holography, and the Value of the Cosmological Constant", arXiv:astro-ph/0104011, April 1, 2001. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0104011 Published in J. Craig Wheeler and Hugo Martel (editors), Relativistic Astrophysics: 20th Texas Symposium, Austin, TX, 10-15 December 2000 (Melville, N.Y.: American Institute of Physics, 2001), pp. 769-772, ISBN 0735400261, LCCN 2001094694, which is AIP Conference Proceedings, Vol. 586 (October 15, 2001), doi:10.1063/1.1419654, bibcode: 2001AIPC..586.....W.
* Frank J. Tipler, "Intelligent life in cosmology", International Journal of Astrobiology, Vol. 2, No. 2 (April 2003), pp. 141-148, doi:10.1017/S1473550403001526, bibcode: 2003IJAsB...2..141T. http://www.webcitation.org/5o9QHKGuW Also at arXiv:0704.0058, March 31, 2007. http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0058
* F. J. Tipler, "The structure of the world from pure numbers", Reports on Progress in Physics, Vol. 68, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 897-964, doi:10.1088/0034-4885/68/4/R04, bibcode: 2005RPPh...68..897T. http://math.tulane.edu/~tipler/theoryofeverything.pdf Also released as "Feynman-Weinberg Quantum Gravity and the Extended Standard Model as a Theory of Everything", arXiv:0704.3276, April 24, 2007. http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.3276
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, in which the above August 2007 paper was published, is one of the world's leading peer-reviewed astrophysics journals.
Prof. Tipler's paper "Ultrarelativistic Rockets and the Ultimate Future of the Universe" was an invited paper for a conference held at and sponsored by NASA Lewis Research Center, so NASA itself has peer-reviewed Tipler's Omega Point Theorem (peer-review is a standard process for published proceedings papers; and again, Tipler's said paper was an *invited* paper by NASA, as opposed to what are called "poster papers").
Zygon is the world's leading peer-reviewed academic journal on science and religion.
Out of 50 articles, Prof. Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper--which presents the Omega Point/Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE)--was selected as one of 12 for the "Highlights of 2005" accolade as "the very best articles published in Reports on Progress in Physics in 2005 [Vol. 68]. Articles were selected by the Editorial Board for their outstanding reviews of the field. They all received the highest praise from our international referees and a high number of downloads from the journal Website." (See Richard Palmer, Publisher, "Highlights of 2005", Reports on Progress in Physics. http://www.webcitation.org/5o9VkK3eE )
Reports on Progress in Physics is the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional body for physicists. Further, Reports on Progress in Physics has a higher impact factor (according to Journal Citation Reports) than Physical Review Letters, which is the most prestigious American physics journal (one, incidently, which Prof. Tipler has been published in more than once). A journal's impact factor reflects the importance the science community places in that journal in the sense of actually citing its papers in their own papers. (And just to point out, Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper could not have been published in Physical Review Letters since said paper is nearly book-length, and hence not a "letter" as defined by the latter journal.)
For much more on these matters, particularly see Prof. Tipler's above 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper in addition to the following resources:
James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), January 20, 2012 (orig. pub. December 19, 2011), 185 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708. http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://theophysics.chimehost.net/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf (broken link) , http://www.webcitation.org/64ttxvzUr
The only way to avoid the conclusion that the Omega Point exists is to reject the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics), and hence to reject empirical science: as these physical laws have been confirmed by every experiment to date. That is, there exists no rational reason for thinking that the Omega Point cosmology is incorrect, and indeed, one must engage in extreme irrationality in order to argue against the Omega Point cosmology.
Additionally, we now have the quantum gravity Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics: of which inherently produces the Omega Point cosmology. So here we have an additional high degree of assurance that the Omega Point cosmology is correct.
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Note:
1. While there is a lot that gets published in physics journals that is anti-reality and non-physical (such as string theory, which violates the known laws of physics and has no experimental support whatsoever), the reason such things are allowed to pass the peer-review process is because the paradigm of assumptions which such papers are speaking to has been made known, and within their operating paradigm none of the referees could find anything crucially wrong with said papers. That is, the paradigm itself may have nothing to do with reality, but the peer-reviewers could find nothing fundamentally wrong with such papers within the operating assumptions of that paradigm. Whereas, e.g., the operating paradigm of Prof. Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper and his other papers on the Omega Point Theorem is the known laws of physics, i.e., our actual physical reality which has been repeatedly confirmed by every experiment conducted to date. So the professional physicists charged with refereeing these papers could find nothing fundamentally wrong with them within their operating paradigm, i.e., the known laws of physics.
Just when I thought I was done with talking about Tipler’s Omega Point theory it starts swinging back in anger! First for a little background I recommend you go back and read my first post on Omega Point Theory (if you haven’t already) which can be found here. I mentioned and quote in my opening paragraph from a question posted on the Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe forum. As well as replying to the query on my blog I also shared my thoughts with the original poster back on the forum. He was appreciative of my summation and for a while it looked like the thread was going to sink into obscurity as all threads do eventually. That is until a brand new member signed up specifically to speak in defense of Omega Point theory!
James Redford (both his username and his real name) posted a 1,300 word reply to the original poster’s question followed by a 2,300 word specifically targeting each of my points! Quite honestly I was a little flattered to have caught the attention of such a die-hard Omega Point believer. It is quite obvious from Mr Redford’s writings that has studied Omega Point Theory in depth and I don’t doubt that he has a far deeper understanding of it’s inner workings than I do. I do not profess to be an expert on physics or quantum mechanics fortunately such expertise is not needed to point out the obvious flaws in the theory. Such flaws are covered in my earlier post on the subject with much help from Michael Shermer. Right now I will concentrate on Mr Redford’s defense of Omega Point Theory and will endeavor to write a blog post in the near future detailing some advice I have for other skeptics with how to deal with similar situations they might find themselves in.
Before I replied to Mr Redford I thought I’d take a look to see if I could find any of his footprints elsewhere online. The most obvious hit for the same James Redford came in the form of a paper published in the Social Science Network . The Social Science Network is not a scientific journal, nor is it peer-reviewed. Rather it a collection of papers written by interested individuals based not on their qualifications or expertise but on their association with others in the network. More about the way Social Networks operate can be found here. The paper that Mr Redford authored is titled “Jesus is an Anarchist” and the following abstract is given:
The teachings and actions of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha’Mashiach) and the apostles recorded in the New Testament are analyzed in regard to their ethical and political philosophy, with analysis of context vis-a-vis the Old Testament (Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible) being given. From this analysis, it is shown that Jesus is a libertarian anarchist, i.e., a consistent voluntaryist. The implications this has for the world are profound, and the ramifications of Jesus’s anarchism to Christians’ attitudes toward government (the state) and its actions are explicated.
Mr Redford describes the implications his research have on the world as “profound”, a small slice of hyperbole if I’ve ever seen it! Mr Redford’s attempts at analysis of the story/myth of a 2000 year old pseudo-historical character are deeply flawed in premise. Whatever sliver of information regarding the life of a 2000 year old Jew named Jesus once existed has no doubt been stripped down, rebuilt and massaged to the point where no meaningful historical account remains. Whilst Mr Redford’s attempt at a scientific paper critically analyzing the exploits of a mythological figure do not invalidate any other argument he makes they do help us develop a picture of the ideology that may be driving his arguments. Based both on Mr Redford’s paper and our exchange on the message boards it is clear that he writes from a perspective that is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian myth of which he is a part.
Now comes the rundown of Mr Redford’s to the points I made against Omega Point Theory based on Michael Shermer’s arguments in his book Why People Believe Weird Things.
My First Point:
1) Tipler claims that Omega Point Theory is a ‘testable physical theory for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God” and that “if any reader has lost a loved one … modern physics says you and they shall live again.” Tipler nevers does provide any evidence for his so called testable theory and throughout the book relies on what sounds nice and what gives people hope. Nothing resembling an actual scientific hypothesis or theory is presented.
Mr Redford’s Reply:
The evidence that Prof. Frank J. Tipler provided for the existence of the Omega Point in his book The Physics of Immortality: Modern Cosmology, God and the Resurrection of the Dead (New York: Doubleday, 1994) was the laws of physics themselves: i.e., that the known laws of physics allow for the Omega Point to exist.
What Prof. Tipler said in his 1994 book is that he didn’t have any experimental confirmation that the Omega Point Theory was correct. Hence, he said that he still regarded himself as an atheist, and that he would continue to regard himself as an atheist until the Omega Point Theory is confirmed. The Omega Point Theory has advanced since that time. Since that time it’s been shown that the only way to avoid the Omega Point cosmology is to violate the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics), of which have been confirmed by every experiment to date.
In the same book, Prof. Tipler correctly predicted the mass of the top quark, which contradicted the mass predicted by the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN). Indeed, a paper Tipler sent to Physical Review Letters in 1992 correctly predicting the mass of the top quark was turned down with the explanation from one referee that it was “clearly refuted by experiment. The estimate from CERN indicates it is going to be 150.” And so Europe’s (and indeed the world’s) most influential particle physicists were wrong and Prof. Tipler was right.
Mr Redford’s first point is that the evidence for Tipler’s Omega Point is “the laws of physics themselves”. Well I’m sorry Mr Redford but just because something is possible within the laws of physics does not constitute evidence! Astronomers aren’t allowed to invent new astral bodies simply because they could exist and Biologists are not entitled to invent animals just because the laws of physics would allow them to be.
Mr Redford then acknowledges that in 1994 Tipler didn’t have experimental confirmation of his theory but claims he does now. Not only does this contradict Mr Redford’s initial assertion that evidence lies in the laws of physics themselves but he fails to provide a link or description of this supposed experimental confirmation (which I failed to find myself). Mr Redford claims that the only way to avoid Omega Point is to violate the know laws of physics, this is just patently absurd. The destruction of the human race or our lack of ability (or willingness) to invent a supercomputer at the end of time that will in it’s infinite intelligence decide that resurrecting every human is a valuable use of its time is not only possible within the laws of physics but probable (and thus invalidates Mr Redford’s argument). Lastly Mr Redford constructs an argument from authority where he claims Tipler correctly predicted the mass of the top quark which even if true has no bearing on whether or not Omega Point Theory is fact.
My Second Point:
2) Tipler argues away most major hurdles and criticisms with “science will find a way”. He claims that humans with not only colonize some galaxies but all galaxies using technologies he assumes will arrive because of his faith in science. Skeptics are often accused of having faith in science, Dr. Tipler demonstrates what that really looks like. He waves away all scientific hurdles including faster than light travel with unscientific wishful thinking.
Mr Redford’s Reply:
The quotation you provide of “science will find a way” comes not from Prof. Tipler, but from Michael Shermer in his book Why People Believe Weird Things (A. W. H. Freeman/Owl Book, 2002). Nor have I seen where Shermer has accused Tipler of supporting the idea of faster than lightspeed travel. Tipler has never endorsed such an idea. Tipler accepts all known physical laws. Indeed, Tipler, in addition to being a mathematician, is also a global general relativist (the same rarefied field of Profs. Steven Hawking and Roger Penrose).
When Michael Shermer wrote “science will find a way” he was fairly and accurately paraphrasing the elaborate special pleading that Tipler goes through to justify his arguments.
My Third Point:
3) Dr. Tipler’s theory seems to be based on nothing short of what he personally wants to happen, though he proposes it likes it’s destiny. From his and our limited perspective the concept of accurately predicted the history of the human race until the end of this universe is ludicrous. To demonstrate how improbable his ideas are Micheal Shermer sets up a brief casual link that would need to be followed:
“if the density parameter is greater than 1 and thus the universe is closed and will collapse; if the Bekenstein bound is correct; if the Higgs boson is 220 20 Gev; if humans do not cause their own extinction before developed technology to leave the planet; if humans leave the planet; if human develop the technology to travel interstellar distances at required speeds; if humans find other habitable planets; if humans develop technology to slow down the collapse of the universe; if humans do not enoucnter forms of life hostile to their goals; if humans build a computer that approaches omniscience and omnipotence at the end of time; if this God wants to ressurect all previous life; if if if if!”
So many of these steps might be wrong and there are so many others in between that this theory is nothing more than a highly flawed thought exercise in special pleading
Mr Redford’s Reply:
The Omega Point Theory has advanced since the publication of Prof. Tipler’s 1994 book. Since that time it’s been shown that the only way to avoid the Omega Point Cosmology is to violate the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics), of which have been confirmed by every experiment to date.
As stated above the argument that the only way to avoid Omega Point is to violate the known laws of physics is patently false. By invoking so many established foundations of science (thermodynamics, relativity etc.) I believe Mr Redford is attempting to intimidate me into thinking that in order to argue against him I will have to reject these established sciences. Sorry Mr Redford, no dice.
My Fourth Point:
4) Tipler is manufacturing his ideas in the exact way as to validate his interpretation of Judeo-Christian philosophy. He is creating his own connections between physics and religion by re-defining both.
Mr Redford’s Reply:
Prof. Tipler didn’t set out to physically prove the existence of God. Tipler had been an atheist since the age of 16, yet only circa 1998 did he again become a theist due to advancements in the Omega Point Theory which occured after the publication of his 1994 book The Physics of Immortality (and Tipler even mentions in said book [pg. 305] that he is still an atheist because he didn’t at the time have confirmation for the Omega Point Theory).
Tipler’s first paper on the Omega Point Theory was in 1986 (Frank J. Tipler, “Cosmological Limits on Computation,” International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 25, No. 6 [June 1986], pp. 617-661). What motivated Tipler’s investigation as to how long life could go on was not religion (indeed, Tipler didn’t even set out to find God), but Prof. Freeman J. Dyson’s paper “Time without end: Physics and biology in an open universe” (Reviews of Modern Physics, Vol. 51, Issue 3 [July 1979], pp. 447-460 http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/dyson.txt ).
Further, in a section entitled “Why I Am Not a Christian” in The Physics of Immortality (pg. 310), Tipler wrote, “However, I emphasize again that I do not think Jesus really rose from the dead. I think his body rotted in some grave.” This book was written before Tipler realized what the resurrection mechanism is that Jesus could have used without violating any known laws of physics (and without existing on an emulated level of implementation–in that case the resurrection mechanism would be trivially easy to perform for the society running the emulation).
Whether or not Tipler set out to prove the existence of god when he developed Omega Point Theory has no impact on the fact that when he presents his arguments (in their most recent form) he argues from a Judeo-Christian standpoint. That is to say that the Omega Point Theory constructs a future where a single entity (mono-theistic god of Abraham) resurrects every human (Rapture). This idea runs counter to many of the other thousands of religions that have come on gone in human history and this deeply flawed scientific theory just happens to create a universe where the Judeo-Christian outcome is inevitable? Oh please Mr Redford, don’t patronize me by suggesting that Tipler’s Omega Point is anything but an attempt at proving the biblical end of days.
Mr Redford only serves to damage further his and Mr Tipler’s credibility when he argues in the third paragraph that not only has he discovered the mechanism that Jesus Christ may have used to rise from the dead but that it’s in any way “trivially easy”. This is about the point where I begin to feel insulted not just for all the non-believers out their but for all the Christians as well. How pathetic and insulting it is that this small group of fringe believers claims to have scientific proof of how the miracles of the bible could be (and were) performed.
My Fifth Point:
5) As memory is a product of neuronal connections how will the Omega/God reconstruct something that does not exist. The information within a human brain is truly lost at death, bringing them back is not a technological limitation. Tipler could then argue that the Omega recreates existence from the start using it’s apparently infinite energy and recreates all life through causality. The problem also exists of which memories will the Omega recreate and from what point in our lifes? It couldn’t truly be a continuation of my consciousness if the memories didn’t lead up to my death.
Mr Redford’s Reply:
The foregoing comment contradicts the laws of physics, particularly quantum mechanics and thermodynamics, which require that quantum indistinguishability be true, i.e., that identical quantum states are in every way indistinguishable, even in principle. (For more on this, see The Physics of Immortality [New York: Doubleday, 1994], Chapter IX: “The Physics of Resurrection of the Dead to Eternal Life,” Section: “Quantum Mechanics Supports the Pattern Identity Theory,” pp. 230-233, and Appendix D: “The Law of Mass Action Requires Quantum Indistinguishability,” pp. 412-416.)
It also contradicts mathematics and logic, since a bit sequence that is exactly identical to another is tautologically identical. Mathematics, logic and computing wouldn’t be possible if this were not true.
Further, it asserts something that no one actually believes, i.e., as it pertains to situations that people actually have firsthand practical experience with. When someone loses an important computer file, we all realize that if they have a bit-identical copy of the file that it is in every way identical to the one they lost.
Let’s contemplate the absurdity that would arise if someone believed contrarily. Take the example of a man who comes home to find that his hard drive has crashed, irretrievably corrupting all his files. The man is an author, and his hard drive contained all of the chapters to his forthcoming thousand-page magnum opus which he had spent many years of painstaking labor on. He becomes distraught upon realizing that all his years of diligent effort have been wiped out. Whereupon his wife informs him that she made a bit-identical backup copy of the entire hard drive earlier that day. The husband, hearing this, responds thusly:
“”
O’, my pulchritudinous wife, you have brought me very low–lower than before! For in this, my great moment of need, you, rather than provide me succor, instead have chosen to mock me with your offer of an ersatz simulacrum of my œuvre. Forsooth, what Fate hath wrought asunder upon the Plutonian shore cannot be undone by means of a spurious effigy.
O’, why must you mock me so, thou taunting temptress?! Depart from my presence so that I can mourn alone, and take with you that counterfeit mimature of my opus! I must resign myself to the fact that my great work is forever lost!
“”
Anyone knowledgeable with computers would realize that this husband has a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation: that two bit-identical files aren’t merely an imitation of each other, but that they are mathematically, logically, and computationally exactly identical in every way, even in principle. They aren’t merely very similar: they are indeed exactly the same file.
This reply by Mr Redford is perhaps the greatest example of the level of sophistry that he is able to stoop to. For those who aren’t aware of what sophistry is it is best described as “a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing”. Mr Redford laces his replies with irrelevant or factually incorrect physics arguments that are linguistically constructed to seem irrefutable and intimidating. For example in defense of the Omega Point resurrection he argues that “a bit sequence that is exactly identical to another is tautologically identical”. What he fails to realize (or chooses not to) is that two pieces of information that are identical can be functionally indistinguishable but are still separate sequences.
In reference to Omega Point this means that even if the super computer is able to reconstruct a brain that is functionally identical to my brain, continuity between my consciousness as it is now and this re-created consciousness is unlikely as we would be two different entities. Mr Redford’s continued argument that replicating a human mind would result in “resurrection” is fundamentally flawed. Yes the recreation might think it’s “me” but I won’t know anything about it because the copy of the information that is currently me will be dead. Instead of resurrecting every human the Omega Point computer would instead be recreating copies.
Mr Redford finishes this reply with a patronizing and condescending attempt at humour designed to illustrate how apparently absurd my arguments are. Nowhere does he extend his own argument beyond false analogy, argument from authority, non sequitur and more importantly factually incorrect assertions.
My Final Point:
All in all there is no real science in Dr. Tipler’s theory. It is best described as an enormous case of special pleading. Here is a man who has stretched the limits of his reasoning to accommodate his own speculative belief system. For a more in-depth look grab “Why People Believe Weird Thing” by Micheal Shermer.
Mr Redford’s Reply:
Michael Shermer isn’t a mathematician or a physicist, unlike Prof. Tipler (who holds a joint professorship appointment in both the departments of Mathematics and of Physics); nor has Shermer ever published his criticisms of Tipler’s Omega Point Theory in any peer-reviewed science journal (let alone physics journal), which is the standard process of the scientific method.
Whereas Prof. Tipler’s Omega Point Theory has been published in a number of the world’s leading peer-reviewed physics and science journals.[1] Even NASA itself has peer-reviewed his Omega Point Theory and found it correct according to the known laws of physics (see below). No refutation of it exists within the peer-reviewed scientific literature, or anywhere else for that matter.
Below are some of the peer-reviewed science and physics journals in which Prof. Tipler’s Omega Point Theory has been published:
The fact that Michael Shermer isn’t a mathematician or a physicist does not mean that he isn’t a world class critical thinker and intellectual. Michael Shermer’s arguments against Omega Point Theory stand on their own merits, rather than their authors credentials. No such thing can be said for Mr Tipler, who Mr Redford feels the need to defend with a long-winded recounting of every single book, paper and article he has ever written. I have omitted from my quotation of Mr Redford the last part of his reply which was a many hundred word listing of such references, adding nothing to the argument at hand but an extension of the already established argument from authority.
Nice try Mr Redford.
P.S. Mr Redford’s arguments didn’t end there. As well as repeatedly beating the same drums as above he went on to argue that other biblical myths are provable with physics including Jesus walking on water. More can be found here.
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This entry was posted on March 9, 2010 at 11:11 pm and is filed under Philosophy, Physics, pseudoscience, skepticism, Spirituality with tags heaven, omega point theory, pseudoscience, religion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
12 Responses to “Omega Point Theory – Redux!”
Adam Says:
April 29, 2010 at 9:19 am
I think a lot of conservative Christians might take exception to the “JC was an Anarchist” trope that Redford is fond of. Having once been a “Christi-Anarchist” the old arguments for the concept seem quaint and just plain silly. The historical JC was a Jew of his times and it’s hard to see any libertarian anarchism in the ideological mix of those times.
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James Redford Says:
September 10, 2010 at 7:02 am
Hi, Adam. My below article demonstrates the logically unavoidable anarchism of Jesus Christ’s teachings as recorded in the New Testament (in addition to analyzing their context in relation to his actions, to the Old Testament, and to his apostles). It is logically complete on this subject, in the sense of its apodixis. See in particular Section 2: “The Golden Rule Unavoidably Results in Anarchism”.
James Redford, “Jesus Is an Anarchist”, Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised and expanded edition, October 17, 2009 (originally published December 19, 2001). Jesus Is an Anarchist by James Redford :: SSRN
Footprints Says:
June 16, 2010 at 11:53 am
Actually James (Michael) Redford has done some irl sock-puppetry and now tends to use the name Jamie Michelle around the place. You can see his/her latest footprints on the web over at the wikipedia article on Omega Point (Tipler). Nothing has changed of course.
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cpolsonb Says:
June 26, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Wow, yet another hallmark of the dishonesty that is so pervasive in pseudoscience. Thanks for the info!
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James Redford Says:
September 10, 2010 at 7:45 am
Hi, Christian Polson-Brown (cpolsonb). Your reply to Footprints is highly ironic given that it was atheist “skeptics” who made the false accusation of sockpuppetry on Wikipedia against me, for which I was vindicated by Wikipedia administrators; and who engaged in other dishonest and underhanded acts on Wikipedia, such as vandalism; disruption; and harassment of me (with one such atheist “skeptic” telling me on a Wikipedia talk page to “f*ck off” [but without the asterisk], and that he wished to see how much I could withstand until I crack).
James Redford Says:
September 10, 2010 at 7:17 am
Hi, Footprints. Actually, the strategic accusation of sockpuppetry on Wikipedia made against me by some antitheists was a false accusation for which I was vindicated by Wikipedia administrators.
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Adam Says:
June 26, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I think it’s incorrect to call the OPT “pseudoscience”. Tipler’s physics is rigorous and his conclusions largely irrefutable within the parameters of the physics he has ruled in to a valid discussion. That’s the real problem I have with the OPT as a physics theory – Tipler has been so rigorous that his physics has become RIGID and now, since he baptised his theory, it has become “dogma” and no longer open to alternative theories. He has judged string theory and related non-singularity theories as “speculative” and “unphysical”, but his own self-determined boundaries of physics have become a theoretical straight-jack, which really doesn’t appeal to other physicists. It certainly didn’t appeal to me after I read his “Physics of Christianity”, his stridently dogmatic stance about cosmological Singularities as somehow being physical, but non-singular theories being “unphysical”, even when he gives several historical examples of how the resolution and removal of singularities has advanced physics.
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James Redford Says:
September 10, 2010 at 8:27 am
Hi, Adam. Prof. Frank J. Tipler points out that the known laws of physics–the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics–have been repeatedly confirmed by every experiment conducted to date. Tipler’s position is that we ought to take the known laws of physics seriously as true statements of how the world works, unless said physics are experimentally, or otherwise, refuted.
Prof. Tipler rejects string theory because it has no experimental support and it violates the known laws of physics. For an example of how string theory violates the known laws of physics, in general relativity, singularities are unavoidable with realistic energy conditions (i.e., given any universe with matter that can contain life): as the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems proved that according to general relativity the universe began in the Big Bang singularity (see, e.g., S. W. Hawking and R. Penrose, “The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology”, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London A, Vol. 314, No. 1519 [January 27, 1970], pp. 529-548). Yet in string theory, singularities cannot occur, because the hypothesized fundamental strings cannot wrap themselves up into an exact point-like singularity.
Reply
James Redford Says:
September 10, 2010 at 6:36 am
Hi, Christian Polson-Brown. I tried posting the reply contained in the below link in this thread, but the blog software said in response, “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” Perhaps this is due to its length or the number of URLs it contained. When you’re able to do so, go ahead and approve the post so that we can keep the discussion in one location. But until then, the below link contains the text of my said post.
Elegant work, Baystater. Omega Point is rather new to me and I had to read up. It may be new to others, so here's a bit of background:
"Omega Point is a term coined by the French Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881–1955) to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which he believed the universe was evolving.
Frank Tipler uses the term Omega Point to describe what he maintains is the ultimate fate of the universe required by the laws of physics. Tipler identifies this concept as the Christian god and in later writing, infers correctness of Christian mythology from this concept.[citation needed] Tipler (1994) has summarized his theory as follows:
The universe has finite spatial size and the topology of a three-sphere;
There are no event horizons, implying the future c-boundary is a point, called the Omega Point;
Sentient life must eventually engulf the entire universe and control it;
The amount of information processed between now and the Omega Point is infinite;
The amount of information stored in the universe asymptotically goes to infinity as the Omega Point is approached."[Wiki]
This site is a useful discussion:
"However, in "The Physics of Immortality" Tipler goes much further than this, and also adds other phenomena to his scenario. In my opinion these are just possibilities, but Tipler seems to regard them as an integral part of the theory. This has seriously weakened it for attack, in addition to alienating many potential supporters...Omega = God
This is probably the most dramatic idea in his theories. Tipler seems to imply that all life will eventually cohere into a unified whole as the universe nears the final moment...Not only is Omega God, according to Tipler, but It is also good and loving. His argument for this comes from game theory, especially studies of the prisoners dilemma. ..Tipler claims that Omega will resurrect everyone into an immortal life in what could only be called paradise."
It is clear that an old religious philosophy harnessed to the religious cart argument has been updated with some recent Big Bang science and philosophy and, (with a hell of a lot of speculation which smacks of the old 'start with the God conclusion and find any evidence to support it' approach of Theists) tries to 'prove' God. I find it very similar to the Alvin Plantinga theory (at least as it was presented by poster Matrix here a few years ago) and, I have to say, the same with Mystic Philosopher's very intriguing 'Cosmic Field' theory. Involves an awful lot of supposition and pre-supposition.
PS: anyone familiar with Kyle Hill's commentary on the perceptions of authority and subsequent "appeals to authority"? He has some insightful ideas that pertain to Mr. Redford's premise here. All of this is probably not for the faint of logical heart, btw. Devoutists probably need not apply!
Good article, Mr. Redford! I look forward to chewing my way through it, though at my mind's tender and withering age, it may take me a few run-ats!
PS: to those who are radical denialists of literally any scientific presentations (inlc. the origins of the universe, for example...) , I pull this from Kyle's insightful mind:
"Once an expert falls out of line with the science, any additional credibility that was conferred by their PhD (or experience) is thrown out the window. Modern skepticism has seen this many times and it is important to remember there is no degree in critical thinking.
In this view, the authority status of any source that we decide to use is then just icing on the cake if their interpretation of the science is solid. The reason why we idolize people like Neil deGrasse Tyson is not because he has a degree in astrophysics, it is because he can explain the science so wonderfully, science that we already know is sound."
Below is an article that I recently wrote. It concerns the Omega Point cosmology by physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler, which is a proof of God's existence based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics). For anyone who has ever wondered about such questions as what the meaning of life is, what the purpose of their own life is, whether there is life after death, whether God exists, what the future holds for humanity, and why anything exists at all as opposed to nothingness, then this article answers all of those questions using the known laws of physics.
This article further provides an examination of the globalist political power-elite: history is given on their organizational structure and their methods of accumulating power; and analysis is given on where they're attempting to take the world, i.e., their self-termed New World Order world government and world religion.
The article furnishes documentation on what the globalist oligarchy's ultimate goal is. This ultimate goal of theirs most popularly goes by the name of transhumanism: immortality through technology. However, I explain in the article that the coming radical life-extension technologies create a fundamental dilemma for the oligarchs, which is why they must dominate world society before such technology becomes a reality. The details of that dilemma are explained in Sec. 8.2.2: "The Mark of the Beast" of the article.
Thus, this article explains to people what is to occur and why it is to occur, so that they will not be in ignorance as to the events that are to unfold.
Below one can download the article for free. I encourage everyone to generously share this article with others. By all means, please save it to your hard-drive and give others copies of it. Also, feel free to share the text of this post. The article is in PDF format.
""
ABSTRACT: Analysis is given of the Omega Point cosmology, an extensively peer-reviewed proof (i.e., mathematical theorem) published in leading physics journals by professor of physics and mathematics Frank J. Tipler, which demonstrates that in order for the known laws of physics to be mutually consistent, the universe must diverge to infinite computational power as it collapses into a final cosmological singularity, termed the Omega Point. The theorem is an intrinsic component of the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) describing and unifying all the forces in physics, of which itself is also required by the known physical laws. With infinite computational resources, the dead can be resurrected--never to die again--via perfect computer emulation of the multiverse from its start at the Big Bang. Miracles are also physically allowed via electroweak quantum tunneling controlled by the Omega Point cosmological singularity. The Omega Point is a different aspect of the Big Bang cosmological singularity--the first cause--and the Omega Point has all the haecceities claimed for God in the traditional religions.
From this analysis, conclusions are drawn regarding the social, ethical, economic and political implications of the Omega Point cosmology.
""
Below are other places where this article can be downloaded:
Note that the above publication date, the total page count, the file byte size, and the MD5 checksum are subject to change with newer versions of the article, if I were to release such.
The URLs to my Theophysics websites should contain the latest version of the article. With the WebCite URLs ( WebCite ), one can look to see if there is a newer version of this article on the drop-down menu containing the date. Also look at the postings in this forum to see if I have published updated URLs to newer versions of this article, assuming I am unable to update this post.
It is amazing the twists and contortions the pseudo-science, believers will go to try to pretend there is anything remotely approaching truth or fact associated with their mythology. However, the more you engage in such "pretend-science", the more people see right through you.
It is amazing the twists and contortions the pseudo-science, believers will go to try to pretend there is anything remotely approaching truth or fact associated with their mythology. However, the more you engage in such "pretend-science", the more people see right through you.
Hi, Flame Angel. As said above, Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology has been peer-reviewed and published in a number of the world's leading physics and science journals.[1] Even NASA itself has peer-reviewed his Omega Point cosmology and found it correct according to the known laws of physics (see below). No refutation of it exists within the peer-reviewed scientific literature, or anywhere else for that matter.
Below are some of the peer-reviewed papers in science and physics journals wherein Prof. Tipler has published his Omega Point cosmology:
* Frank J. Tipler, "Cosmological Limits on Computation", International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 25, No. 6 (June 1986), pp. 617-661, doi:10.1007/BF00670475, bibcode: 1986IJTP...25..617T. http://www.webcitation.org/64KHgOccs (First paper on the Omega Point cosmology.)
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Anthropic Principle: A Primer for Philosophers", in Arthur Fine and Jarrett Leplin (Eds.), PSA 1988: Proceedings of the 1988 Biennial Meeting of the Philosophy of Science Association, Volume Two: Symposia and Invited Papers (East Lansing, Mich.: Philosophy of Science Association, 1989), pp. 27-48, ISBN 091758628X.
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Omega Point as Eschaton: Answers to Pannenberg's Questions for Scientists", Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science, Vol. 24, Issue 2 (June 1989), pp. 217-253, doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.1989.tb01112.x. Republished as Chapter 7: "The Omega Point as Eschaton: Answers to Pannenberg's Questions to Scientists" in Carol Rausch Albright and Joel Haugen (editors), Beginning with the End: God, Science, and Wolfhart Pannenberg (Chicago, Ill.: Open Court Publishing Company, 1997), pp. 156-194, ISBN 0812693256, LCCN 97000114. http://www.webcitation.org/5nY0aytpz
* Frank J. Tipler, "The ultimate fate of life in universes which undergo inflation", Physics Letters B, Vol. 286, Issues 1-2 (July 23, 1992), pp. 36-43, doi:10.1016/0370-2693(92)90155-W, bibcode: 1992PhLB..286...36T. http://www.webcitation.org/64Uskd785
* Frank J. Tipler, "A New Condition Implying the Existence of a Constant Mean Curvature Foliation", bibcode: 1993dgr2.conf..306T, in B. L. Hu and T. A. Jacobson (editors), Directions in General Relativity: Proceedings of the 1993 International Symposium, Maryland, Volume 2: Papers in Honor of Dieter Brill (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993), pp. 306-315, ISBN 0521452678, bibcode: 1993dgr2.conf.....H. http://www.webcitation.org/5qbXJZiX5
* Frank J. Tipler, "There Are No Limits To The Open Society", Critical Rationalist, Vol. 3, No. 2 (September 23, 1998). http://www.webcitation.org/5sFYkHgSS
* Frank J. Tipler, "Ultrarelativistic Rockets and the Ultimate Future of the Universe", NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop Proceedings, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, January 1999, pp. 111-119; an invited paper in the proceedings of a conference held at and sponsored by NASA Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio, August 12-14, 1997; doi:2060/19990023204. Document ID: 19990023204. Report Number: E-11429; NAS 1.55:208694; NASA/CP-1999-208694. http://www.webcitation.org/5zPq69I0O Full proceedings volume: http://www.webcitation.org/5zPsZWvmz
* Frank J. Tipler, Jessica Graber, Matthew McGinley, Joshua Nichols-Barrer and Christopher Staecker, "Closed Universes With Black Holes But No Event Horizons As a Solution to the Black Hole Information Problem", arXiv:gr-qc/0003082, March 20, 2000. http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0003082 Published in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 379, Issue 2 (August 2007), pp. 629-640, doi:10.1111/j.1365-2966.2007.11895.x, bibcode: 2007MNRAS.379..629T. http://www.webcitation.org/5vQ3M8uxB
* Frank J. Tipler, "The Ultimate Future of the Universe, Black Hole Event Horizon Topologies, Holography, and the Value of the Cosmological Constant", arXiv:astro-ph/0104011, April 1, 2001. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0104011 Published in J. Craig Wheeler and Hugo Martel (editors), Relativistic Astrophysics: 20th Texas Symposium, Austin, TX, 10-15 December 2000 (Melville, N.Y.: American Institute of Physics, 2001), pp. 769-772, ISBN 0735400261, LCCN 2001094694, which is AIP Conference Proceedings, Vol. 586 (October 15, 2001), doi:10.1063/1.1419654, bibcode: 2001AIPC..586.....W.
* Frank J. Tipler, "Intelligent life in cosmology", International Journal of Astrobiology, Vol. 2, No. 2 (April 2003), pp. 141-148, doi:10.1017/S1473550403001526, bibcode: 2003IJAsB...2..141T. http://www.webcitation.org/5o9QHKGuW Also at arXiv:0704.0058, March 31, 2007. http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0058
* F. J. Tipler, "The structure of the world from pure numbers", Reports on Progress in Physics, Vol. 68, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 897-964, doi:10.1088/0034-4885/68/4/R04, bibcode: 2005RPPh...68..897T. http://math.tulane.edu/~tipler/theoryofeverything.pdf Also released as "Feynman-Weinberg Quantum Gravity and the Extended Standard Model as a Theory of Everything", arXiv:0704.3276, April 24, 2007. http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.3276
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, in which the above August 2007 paper was published, is one of the world's leading peer-reviewed astrophysics journals.
Prof. Tipler's paper "Ultrarelativistic Rockets and the Ultimate Future of the Universe" was an invited paper for a conference held at and sponsored by NASA Lewis Research Center, so NASA itself has peer-reviewed Tipler's Omega Point Theorem (peer-review is a standard process for published proceedings papers; and again, Tipler's said paper was an *invited* paper by NASA, as opposed to what are called "poster papers").
Zygon is the world's leading peer-reviewed academic journal on science and religion.
Out of 50 articles, Prof. Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper--which presents the Omega Point/Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE)--was selected as one of 12 for the "Highlights of 2005" accolade as "the very best articles published in Reports on Progress in Physics in 2005 [Vol. 68]. Articles were selected by the Editorial Board for their outstanding reviews of the field. They all received the highest praise from our international referees and a high number of downloads from the journal Website." (See Richard Palmer, Publisher, "Highlights of 2005", Reports on Progress in Physics. http://www.webcitation.org/5o9VkK3eE )
Reports on Progress in Physics is the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional body for physicists. Further, Reports on Progress in Physics has a higher impact factor (according to Journal Citation Reports) than Physical Review Letters, which is the most prestigious American physics journal (one, incidently, which Prof. Tipler has been published in more than once). A journal's impact factor reflects the importance the science community places in that journal in the sense of actually citing its papers in their own papers. (And just to point out, Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper could not have been published in Physical Review Letters since said paper is nearly book-length, and hence not a "letter" as defined by the latter journal.)
For much more on these matters, particularly see Prof. Tipler's above 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper in addition to the following resources:
James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), January 20, 2012 (orig. pub. December 19, 2011), 185 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708. http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://theophysics.chimehost.net/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf (broken link) , http://www.webcitation.org/64ttxvzUr
The only way to avoid the conclusion that the Omega Point exists is to reject the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics), and hence to reject empirical science: as these physical laws have been confirmed by every experiment to date. That is, there exists no rational reason for thinking that the Omega Point cosmology is incorrect, and indeed, one must engage in extreme irrationality in order to argue against the Omega Point cosmology.
Additionally, we now have the quantum gravity Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics: of which inherently produces the Omega Point cosmology. So here we have an additional high degree of assurance that the Omega Point cosmology is correct.
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Note:
1. While there is a lot that gets published in physics journals that is anti-reality and non-physical (such as string theory, which violates the known laws of physics and has no experimental support whatsoever), the reason such things are allowed to pass the peer-review process is because the paradigm of assumptions which such papers are speaking to has been made known, and within their operating paradigm none of the referees could find anything crucially wrong with said papers. That is, the paradigm itself may have nothing to do with reality, but the peer-reviewers could find nothing fundamentally wrong with such papers within the operating assumptions of that paradigm. Whereas, e.g., the operating paradigm of Prof. Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper and his other papers on the Omega Point Theorem is the known laws of physics, i.e., our actual physical reality which has been repeatedly confirmed by every experiment conducted to date. So the professional physicists charged with refereeing these papers could find nothing fundamentally wrong with them within their operating paradigm, i.e., the known laws of physics.
Started a thread in science forum for comment.
Baystater
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