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Just to be clear, you don't need physical proof before you believe anything, or do you apply that standard only to some things? It seems like there's lots of gods which have no physical proof but lots of spiritual or personal experiences as truth, and yet you only believe in one of them. Why not believe all of them if that sort of evidence is reasonable?
Things that are of a physical nature do require physical proof. Things that are not of this physical world, can not be proven by physical means, one needs to consider the effects of such things and individually weigh the evidence. When something has no physical proof and can not be replicate, it is required for one to consider all possibilities they learn of and decide which explanation carries with it a preponderance of evidence.
When my plane picked up ground fire and I got hit, I lost consciousness from loss of blood. Perhaps it was simple coincidence, the effect from damage to the plane, wind currents whatever, the plane got knocked off the course I had set for DaNang and the plane headed for the Gulf of Tonkin, Perhaps it was coincidence the plane went down at the moment a sub was surfacing, perhaps it was coincidence the plane pancaked instead of going into a dive as it should have, perhaps it was coincidence a crewman on the sub saw me hit the water.
Later in life perhaps it was coincidence that after saying the Shahadah in a Texas County that had a zero Muslim population, within 15 minutes I met a Muslim from Pakistan who was lost and was asking for directions. Perhaps it was a weird combination of events that an old Muslim Man in Texas would accidentally meet an old Muslim woman in South Dakota and marry her 6 days later.
Life has convinced me that there is a force in this life beyond the physical realm.
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Originally Posted by KCfromNC
This just reads as a list of excuses for why something so huge and omnipresent isn't showing up when we look for it.
So. I have no reason to doubt that is what you see and believe.
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Originally Posted by KCfromNC
Unless you're willing to accept the personal experience of atheists as evidence that there's no god, there's really not much point.
Until an atheist is confronted with something that convinces him/her it is the work of God(swt) I do not see how an atheist could believe otherwise.
Things that are of a physical nature do require physical proof. Things that are not of this physical world, can not be proven by physical means, one needs to consider the effects of such things and individually weigh the evidence. When something has no physical proof and can not be replicate, it is required for one to consider all possibilities they learn of and decide which explanation carries with it a preponderance of evidence.
I am a physicalist. If it is not of the physical world, it does not exist -- that is my position. Why? Because nothing non-physical has ever been demonstrated to exist. Unless you can show hard, physical, scientific evidence that your god is real, I won't believe it.
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When my plane picked up ground fire and I got hit, I lost consciousness from loss of blood. Perhaps it was simple coincidence, the effect from damage to the plane, wind currents whatever, the plane got knocked off the course I had set for DaNang and the plane headed for the Gulf of Tonkin, Perhaps it was coincidence the plane went down at the moment a sub was surfacing, perhaps it was coincidence the plane pancaked instead of going into a dive as it should have, perhaps it was coincidence a crewman on the sub saw me hit the water.
Yes, it was a coincidence.
What's more, your loss of consciousness is evidence that the soul doesn't exist, because if there were a soul, losing consciousness would be impossible.
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Later in life perhaps it was coincidence that after saying the Shahadah in a Texas County that had a zero Muslim population, within 15 minutes I met a Muslim from Pakistan who was lost and was asking for directions. Perhaps it was a weird combination of events that an old Muslim Man in Texas would accidentally meet an old Muslim woman in South Dakota and marry her 6 days later.
Yes, it was a coincidence. Once you get involved in something, you start noticing more of what you are involved in. For example, I bought a black Honda last month, and since then I have seen more black Hondas than at any other time in my life. It's a psychological effect, nothing more.
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Life has convinced me that there is a force in this life beyond the physical realm.
Your own imagination, which comes from your brain, has deluded you into thinking that there is anything beyond the physical realm. The same thing that convinces little children to believe in Santa Claus has convinced you to believe in god.
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Until an atheist is confronted with something that convinces him/her it is the work of God(swt) I do not see how an atheist could believe otherwise.
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, but I am convinced that the gods of human religions are works of fiction. When I was a believer, I struggled with doubts all the time. I used to pray for God to reveal himself to me, to show me evidence for his existence. Nothing. If God exists, he can bring convincing evidence of his existence. Until then, I won't believe.
I am a physicalist. If it is not of the physical world, it does not exist -- that is my position. Why? Because nothing non-physical has ever been demonstrated to exist. Unless you can show hard, physical, scientific evidence that your god is real, I won't believe it.
Yes, it was a coincidence.
What's more, your loss of consciousness is evidence that the soul doesn't exist, because if there were a soul, losing consciousness would be impossible.
Yes, it was a coincidence. Once you get involved in something, you start noticing more of what you are involved in. For example, I bought a black Honda last month, and since then I have seen more black Hondas than at any other time in my life. It's a psychological effect, nothing more.
Your own imagination, which comes from your brain, has deluded you into thinking that there is anything beyond the physical realm. The same thing that convinces little children to believe in Santa Claus has convinced you to believe in god.
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, but I am convinced that the gods of human religions are works of fiction. When I was a believer, I struggled with doubts all the time. I used to pray for God to reveal himself to me, to show me evidence for his existence. Nothing. If God exists, he can bring convincing evidence of his existence. Until then, I won't believe.
It all comes down to being we both have different opinions. I have no problem with that. I appreciate differences of opinions and do try to learn from those who differ from mine. Actually I feel I learn a bit of something from each and every person I come in contact with, mostly from those who I differ from.
I am a physicalist. If it is not of the physical world, it does not exist -- that is my position. Why? Because nothing non-physical has ever been demonstrated to exist. Unless you can show hard, physical, scientific evidence that your god is real, I won't believe it.
While I am at best agnostic, and some would call me an atheist, I disagree with this statement.
Dark matter has been proven to exist, yet it is non-physical. In fact, that is almost the definition of dark matter, and that is almost all we know about it.
Although, there may be an argument about what qualifies for "physical".
While I am at best agnostic, and some would call me an atheist, I disagree with this statement.
Dark matter has been proven to exist, yet it is non-physical. In fact, that is almost the definition of dark matter, and that is almost all we know about it.
Although, there may be an argument about what qualifies for "physical".
Ah, but dark matter's physical presence can detected by its affect on visible matter which is a far cry from he existence of a super natural being that can not be detected by any means.
While I am at best agnostic, and some would call me an atheist, I disagree with this statement.
Dark matter has been proven to exist, yet it is non-physical. In fact, that is almost the definition of dark matter, and that is almost all we know about it.
Although, there may be an argument about what qualifies for "physical".
Physical = naturalistic. Dark matter and dark energy are naturalistic forces. Supernatural things do not exist.
When my plane picked up ground fire and I got hit, I lost consciousness from loss of blood. Perhaps it was simple coincidence, the effect from damage to the plane, wind currents whatever, the plane got knocked off the course I had set for DaNang and the plane headed for the Gulf of Tonkin, Perhaps it was coincidence the plane went down at the moment a sub was surfacing, perhaps it was coincidence the plane pancaked instead of going into a dive as it should have, perhaps it was coincidence a crewman on the sub saw me hit the water.
Here's the rub, we can trace the history of each of those events and find a physical cause. While you lost consciousness did your body move any of the flight controls, were the flight controls damage in such away to alter the course of your aircraft, most likely. Did the sub surface for some reason other than the commanders decision to do so, was he guided in his decision by some force that he could not comprehend, I doubt it. Life is like watching Final Destination, there is a cause and affect for everything.
Ah, but dark matter's physical presence can detected by its affect on visible matter which is a far cry from he existence of a super natural being that can not be detected by any means.
Religion is based upon faith, not evidence.
Unless you can consider the effect the invisible being has on humans as being evidence.
Then again evidence like Beauty is in the eye's of the beholder.
Physical = naturalistic. Dark matter and dark energy are naturalistic forces. Supernatural things do not exist.
Supernatural doesn't exist only if you are willing to redefine every new supernatural discovery as natural.
In order for the statement "Supernatural things do not exist" to have meaning, it has to be falsifiable. A discovery that is not natural must falsify the idea that "only natural things exist," and you may not simply redefine the laws of nature to now include them.
And if anything falsifies materialism, it is dark matter.
Ah, but dark matter's physical presence can detected by its affect on visible matter which is a far cry from he existence of a super natural being that can not be detected by any means.
Religion is based upon faith, not evidence.
I agree with the last part, and as I have stated I'm not a theist.
I also agree that it is quite a leap from dark matter to a God.
My only point is that God can not be excluded on materialist grounds, given the fact that the majority of the known universe operates on non-materialist principles. (83% id dark matter.)
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