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This is only my second post on this wonderful forum. I have been reading the threads for some time, and needed to understand more what this forum is all about before I actually joined.
OK, here is my MAIN issue about god & religion! I'm sure this has been brought up many times before on this forum, so please forgive me, as I have not read every thread and every post.
This is coming from my heart and soul. I try to make logic of everything that goes around us. There are many things that are not answered and will NEVER be answered via proof, such as the afterlife, as well as if there is a higher "being". It's all in each person's interpretation, and what their "comfort level" is for their individual beliefs.
OK, so "I'm From Missouri" - Show me! Logic: We see what is ACTUALLY REAL and happening around us on a daily basis! It may or may not be stated in any "book" written currently or 2000 years ago, which forms the views of the author(s). LOOK AROUND AT REAL LIFE - WHAT DO YOU SEE?
If there is a "god" and IF this "god" is extremely "powerful" and IF this "god" is so "loving", then why is there so much unecessary suffuring & pain all over the world???
And no, I don't want to hear that it's "not god, but rather the "devil" doing the evil. Because if indeed there is a "devil" (or call it whatever you want), and IF this so-called "god" is SO powerful, then wouldn't it stand to reason that "god" can get rid of this "devil" or evil????!!! Then even if there IS a "god" who is so "powerful", OMG, he/she/it certainly is NOT loving!!! Would we have tsunamis, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes (all "acts of god"), along with murders, rapes, and other horrific crimes (acts allowed by "evil", which "god" is ALLOWING to exist)????!!!
I have stated my views on this particular issue that goes round and round, every where I go and see and read......Many people look at me like I have "two holes" in my head or something "abnormal"! I believe, here, my views will be respected and understood (at least by some), even if not 100% agreed with! Thank you for allowing me to comfortably post my views.
I'm thinking this isn't going to be the answer you want to hear, but since no one else has posted yet, I will give you an excerpt from a website I like to go to...For reference you may also go to Bible Questions Answered
Why does God allow the innocent to suffer?
Question: "Why does God allow the innocent to suffer?"
Answer: In answering this question, the first thing to consider is whether such a thing as “the innocent” even exists. According to the Bible, “the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9), and “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Therefore, no one is innocent in the sense of being sinless. Sin entered the world when Adam and Even rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden, and mankind has been in rebellion ever since. Sin’s effects permeate everything, and the suffering we see all around us is a direct result of that sin.
But God did not leave us here to suffer pointlessly. Our loving and merciful God has a perfect plan to use that suffering to accomplish His threefold purpose. First, He uses pain and suffering to draw us to Himself so that we will cling to Him. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation” (John 16:33). Trials and distress are not something unusual in life; they are part of what it means to be human in a fallen world. In Christ we have an anchor that holds fast in all the storms of life, but if we never sail into those storms, how would we know that? It is in times of despair and sorrow that we reach out to Him, and, if we are His children, we always find Him there waiting to comfort and uphold us through it all. In this way, He proves His faithfulness to us and ensures that we will stay close to Him. An added benefit is that as we experience God’s comfort through trials, we are then able to comfort others in the same way (2 Corinthians 1:4).
Second, He proves to us that our faith is real through the suffering and pain that are inevitable in this life. How we respond to suffering is determined by the genuineness of our faith. Those with faith truly from God, “the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), will not be crushed by suffering, but will come through the trial with their faith intact, having been “proven through fire” so that it “might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7). Those are the ones who do not shake their fists at God or question His goodness, but instead “count it all joy” (James 1:2), knowing that trials prove that they are truly the children of God. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).
Finally, God uses suffering to take our eyes off this world and put them on the next. The Bible continually exhorts us to not get caught up in the things of this world, but to look forward to the world to come. This world and all that is in it will pass away, but the kingdom of God is eternal. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36), and those who would follow Him must not see the things of this life, both good and bad, as the end of the story. Even the sufferings we endure and which seem so terrible “are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18).
Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.
you said:And no, I don't want to hear that it's "not god, but rather the "devil" doing the evil.
I know you didn't intend to make the answer conditional... as in tell me what I want to hear, but can I ask that the question be .. more specific?and less complicated? It maybe me... but I'd like to give you an answer.
This is only my second post on this wonderful forum. I have been reading the threads for some time, and needed to understand more what this forum is all about before I actually joined.
OK, here is my MAIN issue about god & religion! I'm sure this has been brought up many times before on this forum, so please forgive me, as I have not read every thread and every post.
This is coming from my heart and soul. I try to make logic of everything that goes around us. There are many things that are not answered and will NEVER be answered via proof, such as the afterlife, as well as if there is a higher "being". It's all in each person's interpretation, and what their "comfort level" is for their individual beliefs.
OK, so "I'm From Missouri" - Show me! Logic: We see what is ACTUALLY REAL and happening around us on a daily basis! It may or may not be stated in any "book" written currently or 2000 years ago, which forms the views of the author(s). LOOK AROUND AT REAL LIFE - WHAT DO YOU SEE?
If there is a "god" and IF this "god" is extremely "powerful" and IF this "god" is so "loving", then why is there so much unecessary suffuring & pain all over the world???
And no, I don't want to hear that it's "not god, but rather the "devil" doing the evil. Because if indeed there is a "devil" (or call it whatever you want), and IF this so-called "god" is SO powerful, then wouldn't it stand to reason that "god" can get rid of this "devil" or evil????!!! Then even if there IS a "god" who is so "powerful", OMG, he/she/it certainly is NOT loving!!! Would we have tsunamis, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes (all "acts of god"), along with murders, rapes, and other horrific crimes (acts allowed by "evil", which "god" is ALLOWING to exist)????!!!
I have stated my views on this particular issue that goes round and round, every where I go and see and read......Many people look at me like I have "two holes" in my head or something "abnormal"! I believe, here, my views will be respected and understood (at least by some), even if not 100% agreed with! Thank you for allowing me to comfortably post my views.
Welcome to the forum ! I hope you'll enjoy it. Most of us are fairly civilised and though there are occasionally heated arguments we tend to stop short of devouring each other !
I have asked the same question on and off this forum from believers and have got no logical response, just scripture quoting and a lot of nebulous suggestions about free will, and the after-life. I think you are on the road to nowhere if you want to talk about REAL LIFE. Faith by definition is not based on fact but on a fuzzy feeling which cannot be proved or disproved despite assurances that god is real. As an atheist it is impossible to get any satisfactory answers from anyone. But being different is what makes the world a bit more interesting !
god doesnt always love. for example i have seen him as a light like energy in my dream and he was very angry to me i could feel it.and my life is like hell since then,it is true that u can **** him off or u can make him love u.
Regarding the OP, I have struggled--as a Christian!--with these very same issues in the past. Every day the media brings us more scenes of disaster and tragedy. Who has not asked "Why me?... Why us? ... Why them?"
Pain serves an important purpose. It is a signal that something is wrong. Suffering and pain are all around us every day; it is God's message to mankind that something is wrong. Action is needed.
If everything was comfortable on earth, we would have no reason to pray
"Your Kingdom come........"
and no reason to look beyond the confines of our little lives.
I believe that God created the universe to run on the law of cause and effect. Natural disasters, disease organisms or genetic disorders that are all part of His curse upon humankind, cannot effect all alike. Human exploitation and tyranny crush the weakest. Some do suffer much more than others.
God will not remove the effects of wickedness, and thus allow rebellion against Him to flourish unchecked. If God removed the evils that are the result of sin, and thus all suffering, He would be relinquishing control to the beings He has made. Men could do what they wanted unchecked. This is unthinkable. But God is part way through His great purpose of ridding the world of sin for ever.
Life and death, pain and joy, evil and good, are all the work of God.
God wants people to realize their own inadequacy and the ultimate futility of human effort. To that end He wants us to feel what Jeremiah the prophet felt:
"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for a man to direct his steps"
God wants men and women to be saved. The Bible says...
"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
However, to force us to obey, would frustrate His original purpose in creating us with "free will".
I believe that no human has ever endured more than Jesus. The reason for Christ's sufferings is a whole subject in itself, but it was all part of the great purpose of God. Without his sacrifice the world would be without hope.
In universal suffering, we see God's appeal to the world.
In the specific sufferings of those who have chosen His way, we see God's education of the individual for immortality.
After experiencing torture, imprisonment, danger and privation on many occasions Paul wrote words of great comfort to his fellow believers in Christ,
"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.................And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him."
In the Bible God has given us the reasons for human suffering and His requirements of those who want to enjoy life in the everlasting future when
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, or mourning, or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away."
Regarding the question of why there is so much pain out there, I think it can be summarized like this: Every time God opens his mouth to speak, we immediately finish the sentence.
Darkness is not Light turning its back, darkness is when something gets in the way of light. Let God do his thing and things will work out great. The Bible never promises life will be easy, it promises it can be good.
Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.
I read your entire post, but it's hard to read when it's all scripture quoting. Since I don't believe that the bible is the ultimate source in life, quoting of scriptures says nothing to me. I prefer layman's language.
But regarding your statement above, so does this mean that everyone who died in 9/11, Katrina, and other tragedies (as well as all their loved ones) were NOT followers of "god" and didn't find "him" "flawless" and/or "didn't trust "him"? Sounds odd to me. But I thank you for your response, nonetheless.
Welcome to the forum ! I hope you'll enjoy it. Most of us are fairly civilised and though there are occasionally heated arguments we tend to stop short of devouring each other !
I have asked the same question on and off this forum from believers and have got no logical response, just scripture quoting and a lot of nebulous suggestions about free will, and the after-life. I think you are on the road to nowhere if you want to talk about REAL LIFE. Faith by definition is not based on fact but on a fuzzy feeling which cannot be proved or disproved despite assurances that god is real. As an atheist it is impossible to get any satisfactory answers from anyone. But being different is what makes the world a bit more interesting !
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your views and logic. I didn't really think I would get straight answers, but thought I'd give it a shot anyway. I'm glad to see a good balance of folks here who have religion versus those who do not. It makes for interesting and diverse conversation. Of course my beliefs won't change or alter, but I can enjoy reading all the various views. I'm still too set on logic and what is going on around us today, than what is written in any BOOK! Thank you.
It's unfortunate that the religious must always remind us that "we are all sinners". Therefore, biblical references are used to justify (not to explain) suffering...as if that is what we all deserve. Some "sinners", like little children, don't even get a chance in life to sin, but must be subject to terrible suffering before they even learn to say "mother". I think it's unfair.
The questions of unfairness and suffering are never answered. The bible doesn't answer these questions, but merely justifies our human suffering.
On the theme of god and suffering I am always reminded of two quotes from the German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer:
"But that a god like Jehovah should create this world of want and misery amini causa and de gaiete de coeur and then go so far as to applaud himself for it, saying it is all very good: that is quite unacceptable."
"For the Creator created not only the world, he also created possibility itself: therefore he should have created the possibility of a better world than this one."
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