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Bit of a cop out there. If something is wrong with what I said then elaborate. running away with a parting shot like that is just useless to everyone reading the thread, and somewhat cowardly to boot.
I have enough respect for you to read what you write and reply at length about what I think about it. The golden rule for which you are named suggests you treat others as they treat you or how you want to be treated, depending on your reading of it. I respected your post enough to read it, do my best to understand it, and then do my best to reply to it. Try being Christian enough to show me the same level of respect.
I'm not playing a "Yes I did...Nope. You didn't....Yes. I did...Nope. You didn't", game. That's for kiddies.
No more..."Ad pop fallacy!!!!"---"No, just pointing out the reality of the world". "Ad hom attack!!!"---"No it's not. I was giving an analogy".
That's a bogus ride I'm done taking.
As for the Golden Rule...If I end up in the the same position in a debate...the person can do the same to me...I won't mind a bit. MOF if the discourse has broken down to that level...I will expect it and welcome it. So, there ya go with the "do to others as........" deal.
In a secular and free society, which we fortunately have, it doesn't matter what our neighbor believes, religiously, as long as the rights of others are respected. As Thomas Jefferson said, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
In a secular and free society, which we fortunately have, it doesn't matter what our neighbor believes, religiously, as long as the rights of others are respected. As Thomas Jefferson said, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Did you read my post or just the thread title?
Did you witness the citizens of California voting to prevent gays from marrying? They did it because of their religious beliefs. There really is no secular reason to deny gays from marrying.
People have the right to whatever religious beliefs they have, but don't kid yourself into thinking that their beliefs won't impact you when they vote to outlaw things due to their religious beliefs.
Did you witness the citizens of California voting to prevent gays from marrying? They did it because of their religious beliefs. There really is no secular reason to deny gays from marrying.
People have the right to whatever religious beliefs they have, but don't kid yourself into thinking that their beliefs won't impact you when they vote to outlaw things due to their religious beliefs.
While a lot of people i'm sure did vote against gay marriage because of their religious beliefs i'm sure there were plenty of non religious people who did too.It amuses me that so many people think that 'all non-religious people' are in favor of things like gay marriage,abortion,gays in the military,etc whether there exists a 'secular reason' or not.Most people that i've known for years arent religious at all and if it was on the ballot would still vote against gay marriage.I have become somewhat religious in recent years and don't believe that two people of the same sex can be 'married' without changing the definition of the word...but if a state wishes to do so I really dont care.
I don't smoke,drink ,gamble,or hang out in strip clubs...but I dont care if you do.I know atheists who wouldn't vote for someone who is pro choice on abortion,and while I think its generally immoral,it doesn't make my list of things I consider when voting for a candidate.I don't think my friends or I are all that unusual.People often don't fit as neatly into little boxes as you think they do.
People often don't fit as neatly into little boxes as you think they do.
I am not saying that all religious people feel one way about an issue and all non-religious people feel a different way (that is obviously false).
But, my point remains that people's religious beliefs do impact their perspectives, values, and how they feel about things, and people impact their neighbors through their voting habits, spending habits, disapproving glances, etc, all stemming from their perspectives, values, and how they feel about things which is influenced by their religious beliefs. One's beliefs in general do that and religious beliefs are one part of one's beliefs, and for many people a major part.
I, for one, am grateful that the religious belief Universal Reconciliation is catching on among Christians. I think people who believe in that religious belief view their neighbors in a more loving way than those Christians who believe in Eternal Torment. Think about it, if the God you hold up as your ideal tortures non-believers for eternity, that is going to impact how you feel and interact with non-believers. But, if the God you hold up as your ideal is full of compassion for all people, even non-believers, that will impact how you feel toward and interact with non-believers.
As more and more people adopt those beliefs, one religious belief moves our society towards a more judgmental atmosphere; the other moves society towards a more loving and compassionate atmosphere.
I am saying what people belief impacts society and in turn each of the members of society. I am not saying that I want everyone to be a non-theist. But, what people believe impact all of us. If people are going to be religious, I'd prefer that they having more loving and freedom promoting beliefs, rather than the religious beliefs that it is their job to prevent what they believe is moral decay and that it is their job to make it as difficult as possible and socially unacceptable for others to do what they consider is sin.
I, for one, am grateful that the religious belief Universal Reconciliation is catching on among Christians. I think people who believe in that religious belief view their neighbors in a more loving way than those Christians who believe in Eternal Torment. Think about it, if the God you hold up as your ideal tortures non-believers for eternity, that is going to impact how you feel and interact with non-believers. But, if the God you hold up as your ideal is full of compassion for all people, even non-believers, that will impact how you feel toward and interact with non-believers.
UR is merely the same as ET w/o a hell concept and a few other things. The beliefs in general and their bias remain pretty much the same. For instance they are generally not tolerant of gays according the the same arguments ETers use. They still claim inerrancy and you dare not challenge that in any way other than simple word translation errors.
I used to be the administrator at Tentmaker and in that time was on many xian forums too. On the traditional forums I could enter into any debate not dealing with salvation get applause and all - suggest UR and you are outta there.
On UR forums, discuss anything but try and defend gay rights and abortion, you are outta there.
UR forums provide a place for folk to still fellowship that find the idea of a loving god condemning 98% of the creation to ET, other than that, it is little different. Folk that raise contentious subject like the trinity doctrine and argue against it is discouraged as when you really start digging in this arena, the facts you stumble across clearly shows the religion to be man-made.
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As more and more people adopt those beliefs, one religious belief moves our society towards a more judgmental atmosphere; the other moves society towards a more loving and compassionate atmosphere.
I do not think so. Seeing how preachers adopting UR are ousted by their followers, the tendency is that folk need to feel they are special.
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I am saying what people belief impacts society and in turn each of the members of society. I am not saying that I want everyone to be a non-theist. But, what people believe impact all of us. If people are going to be religious, I'd prefer that they having more loving and freedom promoting beliefs, rather than the religious beliefs that it is their job to prevent what they believe is moral decay and that it is their job to make it as difficult as possible and socially unacceptable for others to do what they consider is sin.
This I agree on but many folk simply become more open minded, perhaps adopt stuff like pantheism or even look at buddhism.
For me, I see UR as a stepping stone out of the madness and some may dwell there for a very long time. In SA we really do not have any huge UR following outside of the Quakers which are very very small. Most folk here are irreligious even though they might claim xianity in a census.
Well Hueff,I would pretty much agree with most of your response to me.I believe in 'near universal reconciliation' and don't even think the few that don't make the cut will be tortured eternaly but rather eliminated or segregated from the rest of those who have existed.Gay people don't bother me...i'm not convinced that God is really that concerned about the subject either.Believers should be worried about their own relationship with God,not their neighbors.Most of the people i've known well over the years I would classify as non-believers and expect they will have a chance to 'get it right' in the next phase when things will be clearer....unless they're right and the point will be moot.
But it is true, if you want to live in a society that will not corrupt you, your children and everyone with ideas you disagree with, that's pretty much how you'd have to go: You'd have to create a colony of sorts where everyone shared the same ideas and ideology.
Meanwhile in the real world, you're pretty much doomed to have to deal with people whose ideas are going to seriously ruin your day. My thinking: Be a force for good in the real world and that's one less person being an idiot in the world.
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