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You actually think you have a free pass to heaven no matter what you do just because you believe in Jesus? Say you went on a murderous rampage and killed your entire family, do you actually think that would not void your guarantee? I got news for you....There are NO guarantees in life.
You actually think you have a free pass to heaven no matter what you do just because you believe in Jesus? Say you went on a murderous rampage and killed your entire family, do you actually think that would not void your guarantee? I got news for you....There are NO guarantees in life.
...except that we're all going to die. At least at this point in our scientific growth spurt...
Oh goddie, you start with an insult to my intelligence. What a predictable attempt to derail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
The don't make the same claims. Surface similarities yes, but that is as far as it goes.
Then you've either misunderstood me or I think it's you who should study up on world religions. Here's some of the claims christians give as to why their god is the right one as opposed to other gods:
-Personal revelation(god spoke to me, gave me a vision, showed me the truth)
-Evidence in nature(planet is too complex).
-Out of body experiences(I died, went to heaven, met god/jesus and then came back).
-Claim of miracles having happened now or in the past.
-The bible is proof of god.
-The bible contains prophecies which have been fulfilled.
Here are some claims made by muslims to show that allah is real:
I could extend this to include thousands of theistic religions because every one of them make the same claims(which you seem to have read as "believe in the same things"). There is no shortage of people who say they had a vision and saw the truth, no shortage of posts on C-D about proof of their god(s) where you could literally replace the religion it's supposed to prove and no shortage of people within a religion(ie christianity, islam) who constantly fight each other because their beliefs are diametrically opposed to each other. They don't believe in the same but they all think they are right for the same reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Hinduism is out, because they worship many gods and idols. Buddhism was out, because it is a nontheistic religion.
Fallacy, you've presupposed that the right religion must be monotheistic.
You are a monotheist we get it, what you haven't answered is why you are a monotheists (and thus why should we).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Muslim? You got to be kidding! Read the papers
I haven't read the newspapers in a while(I get my news online) but I do remember one of the articles that has always stuck with me. A fundamentalist called David McMenemy drove his car into a hospital and burned down the whole place thinking it was an abortion clinic(it wasn't).
Are you honestly claiming that because a bunch of muslims became terrorists; the religion as a whole is wrong? This isn't just ignorant but absolutely hypocritical considering christianity's history.
Oh goddie, you start with an insult to my intelligence. What a predictable attempt to derail.
.
My, a bit oversensitive aren't we?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
Are you honestly claiming that because a bunch of muslims became terrorists; the religion as a whole is wrong? This isn't just ignorant but absolutely hypocritical considering christianity's history.
Thanks for your kind answer.
Actually the articles I was refering to have to do with mistreatment of women-including stoneing and whipping, legal mutilation and the fact one cannot enjoy a glass of wine.
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And next time some atheist pretends to be interested in my history, I'll just ignore the veiled request.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
Mr5150, tell us why you are a christian as opposed to a jew, a muslim or a hindu? What's so special about your religion as opposed to the other ones? Because as far as non-theists can tell, every religion makes the same claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
You should study up on World Religions. The don't make the same claims. Surface similarities yes, but that is as far as it goes.
I was raised a Jew. Parents went from agnosticism to atheism. In my teen years, I discovered God, and wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Became a Christian in my early 20s
Why Christian?
Hinduism is out, because they worship many gods and idols. Buddhism was out, because it is a nontheistic religion. Muslim? You got to be kidding! Read the papers, plus you have to earn heaven.
Finally we come to Christianity, well for me I discoved that Jesus is the Messiah and thru Him one has the guarentee of heaven. Christianity is about being in relationship with God. Judaism has that relationship aspect also, but thru my studies it became clear that Jesus came to fullfil the Jewish religion
Your 'reasons' for "Why Christian?" are only valid from a monotheistic, pro-Christian, 'personal revelation' point of view. Totally subjective, in other words.
Actually the articles I was refering to have to do with mistreatment of women-including stoneing and whipping, legal mutilation and the fact one cannot enjoy a glass of wine.
I'd watch Jesus camp or witness a gay person being exorcised if you want a psychological equivalent in America.
I really want to know what the point of this is? Why did you bring this up if you are then going to get really upset when someone points out the obvious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
And next time some atheist pretends to be interested in my history, I'll just ignore the veiled request.
Isn't that what you have been doing since you started? You already ignored most of mine and other people's posts, you don't need to come up with a transparent attempt to bail by acting the victim(a very common tactic btw)
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black:
Quote:
My, a bit oversensitive aren't we?.
As far as this thread is involved, it's pointless. The OP has no interest in learning what is meant by "which god" so it's just another one of those "atheists are just always bashing everyone" bait threads.
I guess I can see what you mean by 'which god.' When discussing matters of religion with a believer, it would be better to discuss the god that the believer accepts. I'm still wondering though why you think Christianity is superior because it has endured and spread to other cultures. For example, would you think the Greek pantheon was more superior if it had spread to other cultures and endured in those places. I don't really see how this would make a religion more true than others.
If a law or concept of science is true it's not just true in Mexico or France. It's true in general. Perhaps you see it more in some places, things chemists know about Nickel are going to be more important in places where that metal is actually common, but it's not unique to those places.
If the Greek pantheon is true than it should be applicable in different circumstances. And it was to an extent, several Mediterranean people merged their own gods with the Greeks, but to an extent it didn't work unless there was a top-town Greek Empire encouraging it and it didn't survive that well in competition with other ideas.
The response sometimes given is Christianity is just about an Empire, etc but I have already dealt with that objection. There are many forms of Christianity (Baptists, Quakers, Assyrians) that have never really ran a government and survived or thrived in diverse climates. The St. Thomas Christians of India have maintained themselves for centuries without having any official backing.
If this says nothing to you it says nothing to you. I'm mostly just talking about my thinking on the subject over times. If it strikes you as illogical than meh, I can live with that.
If a law or concept of science is true it's not just true in Mexico or France. It's true in general.
That's because science is a tool created by man to explain the natural world, and that world appears to operate by consistent rules. Unless you think that people created god(s) for the same purpose, I don't see the connection.
Quote:
If the Greek pantheon is true than it should be applicable in different circumstances. And it was to an extent, several Mediterranean people merged their own gods with the Greeks, but to an extent it didn't work unless there was a top-town Greek Empire encouraging it and it didn't survive that well in competition with other ideas.
Unless the truth was that the only people the real god(s) care about lived at that time and location so that's who their message is for. Everyone else is just not relevant to the reality of god(s). Since religion is just faith and subjective opinion, who's to say that isn't the case?
Sure, it's an uncomfortable thought to most people today but there's no reason (literally) to believe it any more than any other claim about god(s).
OP seems a bit combative. I prefer (as always) Thomas' M.O.
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In my opinion, I think the OP is slightly off base from the start: He defines himself as an adherent to Christianity but goes on to say that the methodology of some non-theists who question his belief-hood are wrong because it just so happens that it doesn't matter which God because God is the generalized term for the Creator of the Universe, whichever God that may be.
Problems:
1. By claiming a specific religion with a specific holy book/doctrine, you lose the ability to be generalized, don't you? In fact, by calling yourself a Christian, at least to me, is quite specialized. Perhaps you would be better served simply calling yourself a Theist instead.
2. Because you chose a specific religion with a specific holy book/doctrine that contradicts the specific holy books/doctrines of other very specialized religions, how can the two contradicting religions be correct at the same time? I don't ever wish to quote directly but I'll just mention that there are many Biblical verses of your religion that speak to the unholiness and the certain brimstone that awaits you if you deviate from the Biblical masterplan, even if its simply to follow the other religions that purport to be following God also. I am sure quite a few speak to the certain hell that awaits them if they deviate from its masterplan as well. How can this be?
There are over 700,000 worldwide religions - likely more - some tribal, some polytheistic, some of the occult, some monotheistic, etc - and many of them contradict another by claiming a certain exclusivity to God/Heaven if followed properly. Are they are a charade? If they all are worshipping the God of the universe, then the Holy Books that contradict other Holy Books must not actually be from God. And if you do claim a religion that has a doctrine of exclusivity - and much of Christianity's adherents believe this, then aren't you admitting that you've chosen the correct doctrine?
Well, what if you chose wrong? I really don't see the faltering logic in such a question. If the atheist can be choosing wrong for not choosing one of the many paths, then why is the Theist not able to choose wrong just the same? And if we are all following paths to Heaven, how is it clear to anyone that Atheists are falling short simply by not believing in the God but living a meaningful and productive life on His planet?
...
In the end, does anyone here really believe any of this will ever matter? Cause I don't.
This amazing post has been completely ignored. Well written, well thought out and well put.
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