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We are in Las Vegas. We looked at a property last week that we liked, so we did a little investigating before considering an offer. The lot is about 2 acres, and the owner built a custom home on it about a decade ago. You would never know it just looking, but our research with the county assessor, the building department, and the health district show that when the current owner bought it, there were two homes (about 50 years old) near the back of the lot, which he razed at the time he built his new home at the front of the property. Both of the old homes had their own septic systems. To obtain his building (and septic) permits, he had to show that the septic systems of any demolished houses were appropriately decommissioned ("abandoned in place"). Well, at the time of building his new home, he only demolished one of the homes; the septic decommissioning is on file for that house, and building of the new house commenced. At some point later, he demolished the second house (you can see in the county's aerial photos that one year it is there, the next it is not). However, neither the building department nor the health district has any record of the second demolition and what happened to the second septic system. So, it is possible (we do not know) that the second septic system was never decommissioned properly. In addition, the listing agent is advertising this property as having the potential for subdividing and development or for building a guest house; but the bones of multiple old septic systems on the property would increase costs for anyone wanting to build on those parts of the property. Building would require the old systems and contaminated soil be dug up, and because of a well on the property (and the requirement that septic be at least 100' from the well), there are precious few spots left for new septic systems.
Because of other reasons (overpriced with seller not likely to budge, as well as lack of maintenance in the YEAR this property has been on the market)--as well as the issues above--we've decided not to make an offer. For future prospective buyers, is there some way the seller can be forced to disclose the demolition/septic issues? I don't think regular home, well, septic inspections would ever reveal the information we found; we only found it because we are hypervigilant about researching. Maybe the issues would have been disclosed if we ever got to an accepted offer? I will never know. But I don't want anyone else walking into the mistake we almost did.
If the listing agent got a copy of your documents and shared it with the seller, both the agent and the seller would be required to disclose the information. That doesn't mean they will, in fact if the current owner did all the above work, then he already knows.
However, it might just be a case of something not getting properly recorded, in which case the seller might be able to pull out the paperwork and get it updated property.
I'm not really sure I understand what GOTCHA you found here.
basically that there were 2 other houses on this site with septic systems with only permits for abandoning 1 of the 2? Lets assume he didn't do anything with the other. What have you really found? in my area 75% fo the houses have something on the property that isn't on the town records.
You don't have something that is a huge anomaly. Also, if someone is planning on buying and subdividing, I would hope they will do their own homework in figuring out what they can and can't do and what it would cost. Subdividing sounds like it is still possible, but slightly more costly, however, as far as I understand it, abandoning is really just crushing or filling the tank. seems easy enough to do when they pour the foundation of the new house.
What do you really want disclosed? that this possibly can't work, b/c there were houses here before? tell the RE to stop suggesting it is possible to subdivide? or that it is more costly? I don't see how this is a big issue. Move on.
In AZ the SPDS (Sellers Property Disclosure Statement) usually is not given to the buyers till after they have an accepted contract. Some agents can and do make it available ahead of time but contractually it is not necessary till 3 days after contract acceptance. Not sure on Nevada contracts but in AZ you would not necessarily know if this was disclosed without an accepted contract.
In AZ the SPDS (Sellers Property Disclosure Statement) usually is not given to the buyers till after they have an accepted contract. Some agents can and do make it available ahead of time but contractually it is not necessary till 3 days after contract acceptance. Not sure on Nevada contracts but in AZ you would not necessarily know if this was disclosed without an accepted contract.
Must be an Arizona thing. In Texas, I believe the seller's disclosure is part of the sales contract which makes it reviewable by all parties prior to signing that contract.
Have you personally ever decommissioned a septic? Doesn't sound like it, it's just a matter of filling it with gravel which costs about $50. You are uneducated if you have been told soil needs to be removed. It's not a toxic chemical matter. The "bones" are pvc pipes, surrounded by solid rock, that would not need to be removed. Wells can have septic within 50', not the leach field but the main tank. Plenty of room on an acre to do that.
If you want the place buy it. Don't think you have out-smarted the seller, because you haven't. Get some guidance.
I have long since passed on this property for numerous reasons. I don't at all see any "gotcha" in the "stick-it-to-the-seller" sense. But there would be a concern for any OTHER potential buyer. First, the only way I even found out about the mysterious, undocumented second razed house is by looking through the county's aerial photos from around the time the current house was built. Digging further with a call to the health district, they were able to locate a drawing of the property that shows the old septic. So it is possible the septic for that home has not been decommissioned (yes, I know how it is done). A buyer might purchase the property and--not knowing where the septic is (or even that it exists)--might be driving a vehicle over it, it cracks, there is sinking, etc. Usually a septic would be abandoned in place (the easy, inexpensive way of being done with it). However, discovery of that septic during construction of a guest house, for example, would result in extra costs of either changing plans or yes, removal of the system and surrounding soil before building can commence (that info is direct from both the building dept. and the health district). Also, in our area, septic must be 100' from an existing well; given the shape of the property, that 100-ft-radius circle leaves precious few remaining spots for another septic system, given the buried ones. Both the health district and the building dept. were concerned ("red flag" was the term they used) about the lack of documentation and the possible requirements if additional building on property was desired.
I don't have any personal stake in the future transaction of this property, but I would hope the seller would have to disclose about the old septic systems to other buyers. I'd hate to be the buyer that didn't happen to stumble upon the info.
Did you ask the health department if this is such a red flag why the current owner was not fined in some way? That should create something which would then show up on a title search. Even if it didn't that would be interesting so you know for the future.
FYI, I totally understand what you're trying to do here and wish there was an easy way to do this. We almost went to contract on a different house which we knew had open permits and we were prepared to finish the work, however it is a good thing we went to the building department as it turns out the work which had been done did not match the original permits and was so far off from code and the entire upper story addition would have had to be completely turn out. (Luckily we did not just take the realtor's word for it that everything was fine and that the town would not come out until the work was done, that the realtor had asked these questions and no help which turned out to be a bold-faced lie.) I would have loved to somehow let a future buyer know what they were getting into, but there wasn't.
Did you ask the health department if this is such a red flag why the current owner was not fined in some way? That should create something which would then show up on a title search. Even if it didn't that would be interesting so you know for the future.
Thanks again everyone for the feedback. The "red flag" is not necessarily a violation. Technically, the seller did what was required for their new construction and new septic permits (submit proof that A septic system (some septic, any septic)) was being decommissioned. There seems to be a loophole with no way to ensure that the other septic was decommissioned when the second building was torn down since verification of decommissioning happens when tied to new construction (the new house had already been built by that time). More concerning than whether the septic was decommissioned (any potential buyer could simply ask the seller for proof of decommissioning or require it be done prior to sale) is that a buyer will not even know the septic EXISTS, and so: 1) they will not know to ask about decommissioning or location, 2) they will have an unpleasant (and expensive!) discovery when they drive over it unknowingly or start digging to build their guesthouse.
The lesson I learn from this is that every property has a "story," and a prospective buyer sure better know that entire story before getting in too deep. The tools I've discovered for learning the story include: tax assessor's website (zoning, aerials, ownership history, nearby recent sales, etc.) , building department online permit site, health district records, google-searching the owners, and knowing how to do a darn good "pre-inspection self-inspection." What did people do before they had the internet at their fingertips? Any other "tools" a buyer ought to know about?
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Any other "tools" a buyer ought to know about?
