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I don't think it's a one size fits all and everyone has to find their own way.
I have stood by my son's hospital bedside and been asked by staff when will we be ready to pull the plug. At the end of the weekend we went back ready to initiate and witness his death.
It might have been one of the best things that ever happened to me in my dilemma. The fact that he was gone save for a machine pumping his lungs brought me to a place of acceptance that in spite of all my efforts I had no ability to protect him, that he was a vulnerable as I was.
And I did think, "If that's how it ends then at least he doesn't have to struggle anymore." There was a sense of relief along with the grief.
When we got there he had come to contrary to doctor's prediction that he was gone.
A grim episode in my life but also a gift of freedom for both him and me. and since then I've been able to let go. After all
I finally faced the worst.
I don't think it matters as much what you do or don't do, outside of deliberate harm, but that what is important is to find a place of comfort for yourself.
There are places of help for the afflicted, however misguided or inefficient. If a patient is willing and listens there might be something there for them to hang on to and begin a wellness journey. But there is nearly nothing for the psychological health of parents of troubled adult children.
I don't think it's a one size fits all and everyone has to find their own way.
I have stood by my son's hospital bedside and been asked by staff when will we be ready to pull the plug. At the end of the weekend we went back ready to initiate and witness his death.
It might have been one of the best things that ever happened to me in my dilemma. The fact that he was gone save for a machine pumping his lungs brought me to a place of acceptance that in spite of all my efforts I had no ability to protect him, that he was a vulnerable as I was.
And I did think, "If that's how it ends then at least he doesn't have to struggle anymore." There was a sense of relief along with the grief.
When we got there he had come to contrary to doctor's prediction that he was gone.
A grim episode in my life but also a gift of freedom for both him and me. and since then I've been able to let go. After all
I finally faced the worst.
I don't think it matters as much what you do or don't do, outside of deliberate harm, but that what is important is to find a place of comfort for yourself.
There are places of help for the afflicted, however misguided or inefficient. If a patient is willing and listens there might be something there for them to hang on to and begin a wellness journey. But there is nearly nothing for the psychological health of parents of troubled adult children.
Lodestar thanks for sharing your story.
I have three older brothers, but one of them is bipolar and another bipolar schizo affective. Of the two, the brother that is schizo affective is dramatically lower functioning. His maniac episodes were more acute, his depressions more severe and the meds overall have been less effective. Even in his best medicated state, his quality of life isn't that great. So he has been hospitalized a lot more and he has had a lot of suicide attempts.
Now I will also point out that my other brother who is much higher functioning has needed to go to a psych hospital twice. He is better at taking his meds, but the meds he also takes work a lot better in him, his quality of life is just substantially better. What I am getting is I don't think everyone who is bipolar necessarily has a bad quality of life at all.
But the quality of life for my brother that is schizo effective is really bad. After my brother had tried killing himself on my birthday and multiple times around the holidays, I decided it wasn't healthy for me to keep memorializing all of his various suicide attempts. It was 63 times when I stopped counting and writing down when and where and it's probably well north of 150 suicide attempts by today.
All of those suicide attempts have really made me come to terms with my brother killing himself. If you keep trying odds are at some point you likely will succeed.
For a while I thought that there was something that I could and probably should do to fix this situation, but ultimately it is out of my control.
I suspect that he has a version of this disease that we just don't have real effective treatments for. I think that is a big reason he keeps falling back into street drugs and suicide attempts His quality of life in his best medicated state still just isn't that good. I really wish he could find some level of sustainable happiness, but that has been elusive for him.
I guess I now look at him trying to kill himself like I would look at my Dad dying of a heart attack. If you have heart disease, you get heart attacks and if you have mental illness at an acute enough level, their will be suicide attempts. Both events are aspects of the illness that we don't have that much control over and are just out of our hands.
I also have been to funerals of people who had a family member that killed themselves The people who got through that best are people who are where I am right now, they were accepting of the situation and were willing to see that death of a loved one might not always be the worst possible outcome. Quality of life matters.
So if and when he finally does kill himself I will be pretty accepting of this situation.
For a while I thought that there was something that I could and probably should do to fix this situation, but ultimately it is out of my control.
I really wish he could find some level of sustainable happiness, but that has been elusive for him.
There is something you can do to help him but you have to do it. I posted comments here regarding the last and most revolutionary treatment for schizo, bipolar and other mental illnesses. I'm talking about the very last research/studies here.
You don't have to accept and just wait for him to commit suicide. You can help him, YOU can educate yourself, click the link, read the book, listen to the information, find out about the last cutting edge research and then YOU can help your brother. He can't help himself, he's desperate.
Accepting is not an option. You accept an outcome when you have no options, none, zero. But you can use your mind and fingers to click on your computer and search/find the information that I shared here. Your brother can't do that, his brain is not functioning.
Here's an interview with the Harvard trained psychiatrist (the author of the book mentioned above). Scroll down and read the comments on this video. Read the 303 comments there and see what I'm talking about. People who commented there all have been in this tragic situation. They were mentally ill in the past or have relatives affected. And they improved dramatically after changing their diet. At least read their comments...
Look, I'm familiar with the keto diet. My husband has been on it for the most part, for the last couple of years. He had some liver issues that it's really helped with. But I can tell you with nearly 100% certainty that for a situation like shelato's with his brother... With someone who is later in life having had these episodes this long, first of all you aren't going to get compliance with something like this. You just aren't. There is no way to force a grown adult to stay in a controlled environment and only eat what you tell them to eat, short of getting legal guardianship of them, which is difficult to do. For good reasons! Listen to the podcast someone linked upthread called "Lost Patients." I've been doing so. It's reminded me of a lot of things that I know.
If we are VERY LUCKY we can persuade someone with some form of psychosis to get sober of alcohol and street drugs. If you can't, then there's practically no hope for anything...they will cycle through jails, hospitals, and homelessness. They will be too destructive to have around in a normal person's home or life. And then...if you are very lucky...you can get them to comply with a simple regimen of taking a couple of pills a day that can help them stabilize. As I mentioned before, my own kid...not only has he been traditionally a very picky eater, he does not like many kinds of meat, and he can barely be made to eat enough of ANYTHING to stay balanced, though he is beginning to learn that if he doesn't feed himself (whether he feels like it or not) he can't keep his mind on an even keel. Just getting him to put anything nutritious into his body on a somewhat regular basis is a struggle. Then there's the fact that the nearest grocery place he can easily get to, is a Family Dollar. Not exactly known for selling palatable cuts of meat. As for eggs, he's got an allergy to them, so....
Beyond that, your thing of "just eat meat and eggs!"...have you heard of a condition called diverticulitis? It nearly killed my ex husband when he was 34 years old. He was a proud carnivore who ate more meat than anything else, and it did not make his mental or physical health any better. A diet devoid of fiber, well I've seen first hand, helping nurse him when he had a temporary colonoscopy and a huge gaping and draining surgery wound in his abdomen, where that leads. There have been a million fad diets that have super credible sounding "experts" promoting them. I could go dig up a dozen of them right now with very persuasive books and videos telling you how they'll cure anything or everything. I get that you are passionate about this and believe in it. But not everyone is going to. Some of us have reasons.
But you really need to quit throwing guilt at family members of mentally unwell people for not pushing some diet on our loved ones. We've got enough to struggle with. You put it out there. Message received. You've done your part, man. Enough.
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Originally Posted by KittenSparkles
For anyone who chose to read this thread and would like to become more informed about how things have ended up at this point, I recommend this recent podcast series from NPR - Lost Patients.
To circle back to this... I knew this stuff but like I said, it's reminding me. I'm only two full episodes in right now, still in the thick of the painful personal anecdotes of family members who were interviewed. But useful things from this:
Psychosis (using that rather than schizophrenia, because those who have psychotic episodes are often given a variety of diagnoses)... It looks chaotic and unpredictable, but it's not actually. In fact there are strong patterns of presentation. It's looking like we start with a genetic setup that lies dormant, until/unless some traumatic event usually in the teens or twenties "unlocks" those genes and episodes begin. Then often the person turns to drugs and/or alcohol, which worsens and often masks their symptoms. Family may only see them as an addict and a problem person. It becomes harder to help them or live with them. And the drugs and/or alcohol trigger more psychotic episodes and symptoms. They withdraw from their families. Then a lot of the time they wind up in the "churn"...prisons, hospitals, homelessness... But each psychotic episode causes damage to the brain, and worsening of the overall situation, and greater difficulty for any kind of recovery. And a big problem is the typical lack of awareness/understanding that they are unwell, the perception of their symptoms as real rather than a function of their own minds...this is called "anosognosia." Because of this, they may have poor compliance with medication, or resist efforts made to help them.
Frankly everything that I'm seeing leads me to believe that letting my son flap in the wind or hope that help offered by institutions will be enough, is probably the worst thing that I can do. Granted, if he goes to jail I have no choice, that is what it is. But I have hope that if not, if I can get him under my wing long enough to establish some good foundational things, it is not too late for him to POSSIBLY find an OK outcome. He has been sober for nearly two months. I want to get him into AA or NA. I think he needs the support and accountability. He's seeing his doctors and taking his meds. I want him to continue to do so. I want him to get on disability, so that he has an income stream to get him by unless/until he is able to attempt to work a job. He has actually made tremendous progress in being aware of how he is feeling and what his brain is doing. I have him journaling about his physical and mental health every day, in an effort to advocate for himself with his doctors. But it's really helped him avoid the anosognosia effect. The main presentations of schizophrenia type illness are hallucinations (he's never had them), disorganized thinking and speech (he experiences this and it's a signal of distress and dysfunction when he does), and paranoia and delusions (this was bad at the beginning, and is worse if he's on the wrong meds. But he doesn't have much of this going on now.)
One of the bigger challenges in recent times was to persuade him that cannabis is something he must stay away from. It really triggers huge problems for him. He gets convinced that others are thinking or saying bad things about him and he gets angry and starts conflicts. Interesting other info from the drug bender he went on last year...hallucinogens like LSD and mushrooms do not make him hallucinate at all. He even tried what they call "heroic doses" of acid and while he felt some physical unwellness and scary thoughts and doom feelings...he did not see visual hallucinations. And other substances appear to have a paradoxical effect on him. Stimulants make him sleepy. So it's interesting information, but anyhow I am tentatively hopeful that supporting him if I can to maintain sobriety and build a path forward and new support networks, will help. He has been talking about what he wants to do with his future, he wants to HAVE a future. I'm willing to help him do that, but only if my help is really helping. And that's the thing for those who tell me I need to let go...letting go is giving up on my kid. Seriously. It is. If he's forced to be on the street, he WILL end up back on drugs. While there's still hope to dodge that bullet and and while he appears to be committed to doing the work, I'm going to be there for him. I just need to keep my eyes open because I know that I cannot do it FOR him if we get back to a point where he's determined to make bad choices and go a bad direction. Another poster in another thread (Bootsamillion, but I can't recall where it was)...recently said that to help without enabling, you don't do things for a person that they can do themselves. You help them out in areas where they CAN'T help themselves but at all times focus on giving them the tools to do what needs done instead.
Farm108, if you go through my posts over the years, you will find many stating that each of us is unique in the way we handle food. You will also find reference to something called NAET, which -done properly - can be amazingly effective. I've done Atkins and other keto diets. (BTW Sonic - that is not a partial colonoscopy, the hole in the side that gives the large intestine a rest is called a stoma. I've cared for a few in the hospital job.)
I'm going to put it as simply and clearly as possible. There is NO one panacea. What works for some can mean death for others. A diet of peanuts might cure migraines. It also would kill someone allergic to peanuts.
The closest "cure" I remember being touted with the vehemence you are touting keto was lobotomy. Look up the history of it and how it was THE definitive cure for mental illness that was otherwise intractable. Then look at the "Oops! Sorry!" retractions. Be measured in your suggestions, please.
I know many natural herbs that can be used to handle various illnesses or deficiencies. I also know that I don't know a fraction of what a trained Chinese herbalist does, or some native American healers. I might point in a general direction if someone presents a problem, but once done it is time to move on and let the suggestion be examined or tossed.
Each individual is ultimately the guide to their own life. Some might commit suicide as part of an aggressive act, some might just need peace. Some might not understand what they are doing or why, but the ultimate responsibility STILL lies with them. If you want to suggest that it lies with their disease, I accept that. However, to claim that god control of the life of another individual creates problems for both individuals.
Thanks, shelato. I'm glad you found your spot of comfort.
I always enjoy reading your posts. You are thoughtful, well informed and encouraging. So thank you for that!.
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Originally Posted by farm108
There is something you can do to help him but you have to do it. I posted comments here regarding the last and most revolutionary treatment for schizo, bipolar and other mental illnesses. I'm talking about the very last research/studies here.
You don't have to accept and just wait for him to commit suicide. You can help him, YOU can educate yourself, click the link, read the book, listen to the information, find out about the last cutting edge research and then YOU can help your brother. He can't help himself, he's desperate.
Accepting is not an option. You accept an outcome when you have no options, none, zero. But you can use your mind and fingers to click on your computer and search/find the information that I shared here. Your brother can't do that, his brain is not functioning.
Here's an interview with the Harvard trained psychiatrist (the author of the book mentioned above). Scroll down and read the comments on this video. Read the 303 comments there and see what I'm talking about. People who commented there all have been in this tragic situation. They were mentally ill in the past or have relatives affected. And they improved dramatically after changing their diet. At least read their comments...
First let me say, I genuinely appreciate the intention to be supportive and encouraging. I know your heart is in the right place. Thank you.
I put myself on the waiting list at my local library for Brain Energy, so I will read this book, but it might take me a month or two to get it.
That said, this isn't the first book, I have read on this theme. Back in 2010, I read the Jungle Effect. It was written by a doctor at UCSF medical school.
This book wasn't prescribing a specific diet as much as noting certain areas of the world were anomalies for certain medical conditions and the author went to these places to try to figure out if and why the local diets in these areas offered specific protections to specific illnesses and why that might be the case.
Specifically she went to Iceland. Iceland is really far north in the middle of the North Atlantic. Even when the Sun theoretically could shine it's often raining and overcast but because it's so far north, the days are really short in the winter. Basically Iceland is a place you would assume should have a problem with seasonal affective disorder and probably depression as well. But Iceland doesn't have that problem, it has one of the lowest rates of depression in Europe despite the location and the author was trying to explain why that was the case.
Ultimately she thought the issue was the local Icelandic diet. Because Iceland is so isolated, it's expensive to ship food in so people eat local foods. In the winter time the ocean doesn't freeze so a good chunk of the calories come from fish caught in Iceland. This fish is wild and has lots of omega 3's in it. Additionally people eat lot's of wild berries that are also high in Omega 3's in it. Lastly people get a lot of calories from the local sheep. The sheep feed on this plant that creates these berries and a lot of other plants in Iceland that are also high in Omega 3's. Also a lot of the dairy products come from sheep and cows that are also on this same feedstock and they too are high in Omega 3'
The Jungle Effect: Healthiest Diets from Around the World--Why They Work and How to Make Them Work for You https://a.co/d/3O2Glx8
There was also Spark and Go Wild by John Ratey a professor of Psychiatry at Harvard. Which were both excellent. Go Wild had similar dietary suggestions and Spark had probably the best discussion I have seen on the benefits of exercise for improving mental health.
So I want to make clear, on the merits of your argument I am probably already sold. I know for myself, I was able to stop taking antidepressants when I improved my diet and got really consistent with exercise.
But I am with Sonic on the problems of getting my brothers to follow through here.I have attempted repeated interventions with them, that really haven't been successful. Before COVID, Costco was selling annual 2 year prepaid gym memberships at the 24 hour fitness. I bought them not just for myself, but also for my brothers. I went, they didn't. But one of my brothers friends had a daughter that worked at the SPCA and she recommended a dog for my high functioning brother and that did work with him. Even when he is depressed he will walk the dog, even when he would otherwise be too depressed to walk himself. But the lower functioning brother when depressed doesn't respond that way with dogs.
My brother with the most acute issues was living in a group home. Do I think a better diet would help,yes but he again lacked the motivation and the opportunity to improve his diet. I was bringing over healthier food, he just wasn't eating it.
Bipolar is a mood disorder. When you are bipolar one of the problems you are dealing with is mood disregulation .- you are cycling between mania and depression so the doctors prescribe a mood stabilizer which results in symptom improvement but often isn't a cure and it's not uncommon to be either a little hypomanic or to be dealing with a low level depression even with the meds being adjusted as well as they can be.
So that's a big reason compliance with intervention just doesn't work. If someone is either too depressed or too hypomanic they often won't follow through on simple instructions. There is a reason they are being put on permanent disability. They really struggle with day to day taking care of themselves.
Both of my bothers also have problems with executive function. Here is pretty good explanation of you aren't familiar with that term, but again it makes completing ordinary tasks really difficult for them which then means creating huge amounts of additional work for you to ensure compliance.
Now why that matters is issues with the primary care giver and codependency.
My brothers problems can expand to fill the time allocated. I could quit work and dedicate my life 24 hours a day to taking care of them and they would still have major problems just trying to navigate life There problems are larger than my ability to solve them.
When I was in college my schizo affective brother started having problems and when I was in grad school, he had his first suicide attempt.At that time my parents tried to be his primary care giver, but in time they were too old and his problem were too acute. My mom was having mini strokes and my dad needed a coronary bypass surgery. They just really couldn't manage my schizo affective brother. It was too much.
So my oldest brother decided he would assume that role. But his primary coping mechanism for the stress involved was to keep getting really baked. He stopped being emotionally present in his own marriage and his wife left him. It was at this point my oldest brother was put diagnosed with bipolar and put on disability retirement.
What I want to get at is that I have seen and dealt with multiple family members who have just been overwhelmed with dealing with this problem of mentally ill family members.. Out of a sense of love and responsibility there is this sense that you should be there for a family member in need. But it's also a trap. If you give so much of yourself, that you are damaging yourself, but the person you are devoting so much time to isn't actually improving. You are probably doing too much, but it doesn't feel like you are doing enough just the same.
I know there are some times in this thread where Sonic is getting prickly, but I know where that is coming from, she is both doing probably more than she probably should but feels like she is not doing enough and at the same time when someone suggests that she could do more she is resentful because she is actually already totally overwhelmed but I suspect feels guilty to acknowledge that to herself.
It's not easy to draw the line on how much is too much. For me that line is if I am doing something that is costly to me, but isn't improving my brothers enough to justify the cost to myself I think that is too much. But that's not an easy line to define
But the bigger point I want to make is accepting is an option. There are real finite limits on what we can do. I have seen and deals with multiple family members who got overwhelmed in trying to take care of a mentally ill family member.
My brothers really do have problems that I am not going to be able to fully fix on my own. I can do some things but not everything and that's ok.
One of the consequences of having a brother who has tried to kill himself as many times as I have is that I really have come to terms with the fact that he can and probably will kill himself at some point. But you know what we all die at some point I have made more than a reasonable effort to help both of my brothers. I have no guilt about not doing enough nor sacrificing enough because I have.
We all have boundaries about how much is too much and that is ok.
If one or both of my brothers commit suicide. I get it. I understand it. I accept it.
I put myself on the waiting list at my local library for Brain Energy, so I will read this book, but it might take me a month or two to get it.
I just finished the book, like 5 minutes ago. I hope I did not forget anything. My memory is pretty good.
Basically, you (you in general) need to:
- stop all the substance abuse (drugs, alcohol etc);
- eat a very clean diet, nothing processed, only natural ingredients, less than 20 carbs/day, moderate protein and high in fat. If you are obese do not have the diet very high in fat but you must eat some moderate amount of fat every day. (Good fat, like olives, olive oil, avocados, cheese high in fat like Brie etc.) In time, you'll lose weight on this diet as a side effect. While you get smaller you increase the amount of fat that you eat. Gradually. You can follow this diet even if you are a vegetarian or vegan but it's going to be difficult. More difficult. But not impossible;
- exercise daily or aim for at least 3-4 times/week. Can be Pilates, walking, aerobic, or something harder like lifting weights, running etc. You choose. But it has to be some form of exercise, anything that you enjoy, dancing etc;
- daily meditation, any type of meditation, guided, observing nature, sitting in stillness, any type of quiet time just being in silence, no stimuli. It can be just breathing exercises outside in nature, or in front of an open window;
- check your hormones with a doctor;
- use a daily routine for improving your sleep patterns. Like: blue lights in the evening, no screens in the evening, exposure to sun's rays in the morning, moving and being active during the day etc;
- having a purpose in life, even if just cleaning the house, having a daily routine, basically: contributing in some form to your family/community. It makes you feel good, appreciated and so on;
- using supplements if needed, check with your doctor;
- using a monitor/stripes for checking the ketones level/daily. Not cheating on this diet, never cheating on it. It's really important;
- address trauma using psychotherapy if possible;
- use fasting and intermittent fasting if possible. Do not use this method if you have a history of bulimia, anorexia or other eating disorders;
- asking for help from friends and family so they can cheer you up every time you need it. Very important;
- implement gradually all these steps (that I mentioned above) or at least some of them and do this program for 3-4 months. Don't have cheat days. If the diet seems to be working, continue with it for the rest of your life. If it doesn't work, continue with medication. This program doesn't work if you continue to drink alcohol and/or use substances/drugs;
- work with a psychiatrist if possible and tap off the medications you are still on - if possible - while following this protocol. The psychiatrist (all of them at this point in time, unfortunately) will not believe you, will probably laugh at your diet (keto diet) and will probably make fun of it. Print this page and go see the psychiatrist with this page. Or give them the link. They don't study nutrition in medical school and only treat the symptoms not the causes. Unfortunately.
Good luck. Have hope. Don't give up. It's not going to be easy.
(You are welcome)
I put in Italics my own suggestions. They are not mentioned in the book. He/the author talks about it on YouTube in different interviews. I know it's true what I suggested.
Farm108, if you go through my posts over the years, you will find many stating that each of us is unique in the way we handle food. You will also find reference to something called NAET, which -done properly - can be amazingly effective. I've done Atkins and other keto diets. (BTW Sonic - that is not a partial colonoscopy, the hole in the side that gives the large intestine a rest is called a stoma. I've cared for a few in the hospital job.)
Oof, yeah. Sorry about that. I do know the distinction, just accidentally typed the wrong word. Not colonoscopy, colostomy. (Does not help that my son is trying to schedule a colonoscopy right now to attempt to figure out his gut issues.)
I am prepared to believe that adjustments to diet may be the key to sorting out his health. As I mentioned before, they did a study of autopsies of people who had schizophrenia and found that some 80% of them had serious stomach or gut problems. Serotonin isn't produced in the brain, but rather in the gut. And everything is connected!
But we have to put out the house fire before any rebuilding can begin, here. He is off the drugs and alcohol at the moment. That's a huge step in the right direction. He has legal stuff to sort out that hopefully does not land him in jail. If he goes to jail, he eats what he's given. But if not, then the next step is getting him out of a seriously trauma inducing high stress home environment, and into somewhere more peaceful. In the meantime, just getting him to consume enough calories is where we're at for diet. Though he has been trying to eliminate certain things to see if it helps him, he switched to almond milk which he likes, because he has been diagnosed with EOE, and they gave him a list of foods he may be sensitive to and told him to do an elimination diet to figure out which one it probably was. Obviously when he was drinking and drugging no such thing would happen, but now he's prepared to take some small steps. Oh and one thing with a nod to keto and some other diets, is that he can't actually afford to lose weight. My husband lost weight on keto. My son is rail thin, underweight. He's right around 130 lbs at 6'1". He does exercise, if somewhat inconsistently...mind, when I say that I don't mean "his efforts are minimal" the way I'd mean if I said it about myself. Either he's pushing himself ridiculously hard or not at all.
Quote:
I'm going to put it as simply and clearly as possible. There is NO one panacea. What works for some can mean death for others. A diet of peanuts might cure migraines. It also would kill someone allergic to peanuts.
The closest "cure" I remember being touted with the vehemence you are touting keto was lobotomy. Look up the history of it and how it was THE definitive cure for mental illness that was otherwise intractable. Then look at the "Oops! Sorry!" retractions. Be measured in your suggestions, please.
I know many natural herbs that can be used to handle various illnesses or deficiencies. I also know that I don't know a fraction of what a trained Chinese herbalist does, or some native American healers. I might point in a general direction if someone presents a problem, but once done it is time to move on and let the suggestion be examined or tossed.
Each individual is ultimately the guide to their own life. Some might commit suicide as part of an aggressive act, some might just need peace. Some might not understand what they are doing or why, but the ultimate responsibility STILL lies with them. If you want to suggest that it lies with their disease, I accept that. However, to claim that god control of the life of another individual creates problems for both individuals.
I just got into it over texts with my ex, who observed that kid is telling him a bunch of things he plans to do today...and it's just baffling that he can't even hold a fast food job. I'm like, well, you of all people should understand. Disabled individuals have good days and bad days. Jobs expect you to always be having a good and functional day when THEY need you to. Some folks who need wheelchairs aren't 100% incapable of ever standing up. He says, "yeah it's just ironic." It isn't. And it's annoying that he can be so critical and obtuse about it since he himself can't hold a job unless it's something like the military where they don't give you much of a choice. He's always been that way. Frankly when it comes to that, our son is pretty similar to his father...but his father gets all mad when anyone points it out.
In a way I've had to sporadically deal with both of them, they get into conflicts, usually around like 6AM when my eyes are barely open, and most of the time I'm able to talk them both down, when inevitably one of them calls me. Occasionally not. So if nothing else, I'm really looking forward to getting my son out of there so I don't have to deal with my ex so much. I can accept my kid being my problem, to a pretty far point...but damn. Not my ex.
And yeah, I do acknowledge limits to how long and how much help I want to give my sons. I have specific goals I want to try and help them achieve while they stay with me. I have told them both that not only do I need them to be "good housemates" but also to be making dedicated progress on these goals. And I think that the goals in question are reasonable ones. The only thing that troubles me is that if it all goes sideways, then... Well. Then we have to look at alternatives, including painful and difficult ones.
This is very much related to the struggles I've been dealing with, with my younger son. And honestly I'm starting to have concerns about my older one as well. I feel like the choices ahead are to:
1. Just accept that I will have to care for them for the rest of my life, and try to leave trusts to provide for them once I'm gone. (I really don't want to do this - the spending the rest of my life providing for and caring for them, that is.)
2. Cut them loose and let whatever happens, happen. Up to and including prison or death, both of which seem very possible. I am not at all convinced that either of them will buck up and pull themselves up by the bootstraps if only they want it badly enough and I step off and leave it all to them.
3. What I've been trying to pursue, which is some kind of "middle path" of moderated help...where I assist with their basic needs, but it isn't exactly comfortable and they do have some hardships and will continue to have them until they fix matters themselves that need fixing. My help being focused also on trying to solve any problems that are keeping them "stuck" right now...like encouraging them to seek the healthcare they need, trying to help them get transportation problems solved so that they can expand their job searches and so on.
I am afraid that it's hard to keep my assistance reined in to #3 without ending up in a #1 situation, though.
Many say I need to cut them off. I don't know if I can live with myself if I do, though. I tried to back it off with my younger kid and accept he's an adult and will do what he's gonna do...he wound up riding around in a car (living in the car) with an alcoholic and drug addicted girlfriend, getting into daily drinking and hard drugs himself, and getting into a public altercation with her that may end up with him going to jail after an upcoming court date. I feel like I am the only person who can barely help mitigate their propensity to disaster. But it's not a job I want. This is why I have a hard time with the natalists, frankly if I'd known at age 19 what I know now, I would not have had kids at all. This is not remotely the life I wanted, not even as rewarding as it was when they were small and adorable.
Some also say that we need to bring back the insane asylums. I am not sure about that. I mean, yes, I'd love it if there were somewhere for my troubled kid to go other than jail. But I worry that these places could all too often be cruel and abusive. I see how even some nursing homes are abusive and neglectful to the elderly, or children's homes brutal to the kids (watch "The Program" on Netflix) so no one will be able to convince me that the mental asylums are going to be kind places by default. It really seems to me like some who go into professions where they have power over others, wind up on a power trip, and do terrible harm to those at their mercy. And even if the staff were all great, there's a certain amount of peril from the other residents. My son is not a monster or a raving beast. He is generally well mannered and charming and has a great capacity for love and kindness...even if in many cases (that are important to being a functioning adult in a capitalist society) he just doesn't seem to know how to act or have the capacity to do what he's supposed to. I hate to say it, but I'd rather his life be cut short than for him to be locked up somewhere that he'd be tortured and miserable, just for the sake of him being alive. But then I am one who believes that there's not much point of life if you have no hope for any kind of quality of life...I know that's a philosophical position that many disagree with.
And he doesn't WANT to be a burden to me or anyone else. Neither of my sons really do. They just do not seem to have what it takes to avoid that, and to survive on their own.
SnazzyB makes a good point. Who has ever, actually, done a really good job of helping the mentally ill?
Honestly I'm not sure that we can reach the kind of solution I'd love to see, with some of the basic mindsets that drive our society in the US. If you had a truly kind and pastoral "put them out to pasture" that assured real comfort and care, you would inevitably have the capitalist-curmudgeon types saying that they are leeches on society just wanting to have the good life without working for it, and by golly if we don't torture anyone who is not either rich or working their butt off, then no one will work and society will collapse around us. As though people really want to give up their liberty to live in even a pleasant cage, and as though the only reason anyone would do any work ever is having a gun to their head in the form of basic survival needs. So yeah I just really don't know what one could hope for. And sadly, Mike, as a woman who pays attention to the voices of women...I don't think that we can hope that having more women in charge will really mean more compassion and better care for the vulnerable. I mean, I get why you might think so. But women are as prone as anyone to greed, graft, corruption, and other evils of power. If you follow politics, and you think about it...some of the women...well. You know what I'm saying.
Hey, just want you to know you aren't alone in your struggles with grown kids. I have three kids, 2 on Meth and one that doesn't do drugs, but makes HORRIBLE choices.
I've learned how to love them and help them (on occasion) but not let their problems become mine. I learned this at Al Anon (which I'm sure your friends have told you about). They do have online zoom Al Anon meetings, and hearing from other parents in the same (or close) situation is somewhat comforting, although of course, the "misery loves company" thing is not something we want. We just want to know what to do.
My son (oldest child) is 46. He likes to have babies and started when he was 17. That grandchild is 27 years old and my son never sees him. My daughter married the grand's step-dad when his "baby mama" died so that in itself defies the laws of geneology. So my daughter is step-mom to her nephew. You do the math. Son never marries his baby's mother who died. He did marry an Asian girl and they have two kids who I would refer to as "crack kids". They will have so many psychological issues when they grow up, mainly acute abandonment issues, low self esteem and all the goodies that send kids nowadays spiraling out of control on drugs...anything that sets them free of pain. So he sees those kids a lot, but he is still married to the wife (Asian girl) but estranged from her. He has a new girlfriend, 20 years his junior and they have a precious baby girl. He has no job, he is the epitome of an "addict".
Oldest daughter is 41. Beautiful, Registered Nurse with specialties. Graduated at top of her class. She weighs about 90 lbs and looks like crap. She allows her toxic on-off bf to punch her and knock her around. She likes meth too. She can't afford food and is on disability.
Youngest daughter has a business degree and is raising two sons. She is a good Mother, that I will say but she has had so many live in boyfriends that the boys were attached to and then they break up and there goes that Daddy. Over and over until now, she married her brother's EX gf's widow. They are happy and the kids are doing OK. Oldest is in college and the youngest has severe anger issues and has caused a LOT of problems. He seems to be doing better now.
All of these things could absolutely magnify and consume my thoughts, my energy and my heart all day long every day, but I have a life to live too. I have come to learn that until they want help, they aren't going to get it. You can't provide it, they have to want it. They have to be willing to do what it takes to get clean and so far my son has been in rehab twice and right back on it. My daughter asked to go to rehab and we helped get her in and she stayed 24 hours and that was about 4 years ago.
My daughter is so thin that I'm very concerned and she tells me all the time that she only gets $20 week for groceries and she's hungry. So, I will send her a bone here and there, strictly for groceries or I will actually take her to the grocery so she won't buy drugs with her food money.
It's all the same, it's all different. Two families, same crap. I urge you to at least try the Al Anon plan to help YOU and then and only then can you help your kids.
Thoughts and Prayers for your family.
Now we get to worry that their "meth" or "weed" will be laced with Fentanyl and they will overdose. Hopefully people will put their "gummies' in a safe place when they have children.
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Oof, yeah. Sorry about that. I do know the distinction, just accidentally typed the wrong word. Not colonoscopy, colostomy. (Does not help that my son is trying to schedule a colonoscopy right now to attempt to figure out his gut issues.)