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Children UNadopted in orphanages: The only numbers on this I could find are provided from the 188 Catholic orphanages in the US. that number is 75,890 (no date given). So this number doesn't take into account various other relevant statistics (total number of orphans, orphans born into poverty, etc.).
Then we can also count the children that are in foster care (2003): ~520,000
AFCARS Report - Interim Estimates as of June 2006 (http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stats_research/afcars/tar/report10.htm - broken link)
Average cost of adopting a child in the US: $10k-$15k
Yep... pro-life has some great reasons to keep those kids coming!! Just keep popping them out... we need to keep the foster systems, orphanage systems, and AIDs clinics in business!! We can't take care of what we are doing as a society now... and the best answer you can give is "keep popping them out.. they deserve a chance!!" Please.
So your logic says, Kill 'em. Nice.
I'll stand on the side of life. Enjoy your "choice".
Yes, that's the key ...the woman DECIDES what to do with her OWN body.
If anti-choice people had their way every rape victim would be forced to have the baby.
Not true, many prolife people are in favor of abortion only if the mother's life is in danger or in the instance of rape. Don't paint it so black and white.
I'll stand on the side of life. Enjoy your "choice".
Your position is that when sperm meets egg, voila! a human is created. My position is that it takes a little more development than fertilization. I may be wrong, and you are right, but then again, you might be wrong and I may be right. The difference is, my beliefs don't require that I impose them on people that don't share them. Your beliefs do. I don't believe in forcing any woman to have an abortion, and I think women should talk to their doctors about this, know what to expect, know that an abortion isn't a solution to their problems and that they will still have to deal with the fact that they suffered an unwanted pregnancy and that their choices have consequences. But it really needs to be a matter between her doctor and herself. It is an intimate condition, one that demands privacy. Having a reverence for life implies respect for people. Allowing someone their privacy would seem to be a keynote of that respect. Forcing someone to endure a life-altering condition, and in some cases life-threatening condition, doesn't seem to imply much respect.
Not true, many prolife people are in favor of abortion only if the mother's life is in danger or in the instance of rape. Don't paint it so black and white.
The problem with this is that a burden is placed on a woman to prove that her pregnancy is life-threatening or that she has been raped. Believe me, when a woman has been raped, it is an additional trauma to have to prove that to some arbitrary committee. And in terms of life-threatening pregnancy, most women start out a pregnancy relatively healthy. A woman's health status can change at any time. Even if there is a pattern in a woman's family of health problems associated with pregnancy, how can a woman or her doctor prove to a pro-life committee that she will suffer from complications so severe that termination is the preferable option?
The problem with this is that a burden is placed on a woman to prove that her pregnancy is life-threatening or that she has been raped. Believe me, when a woman has been raped, it is an additional trauma to have to prove that to some arbitrary committee. And in terms of life-threatening pregnancy, most women start out a pregnancy relatively healthy. A woman's health status can change at any time. Even if there is a pattern in a woman's family of health problems associated with pregnancy, how can a woman or her doctor prove to a pro-life committee that she will suffer from complications so severe that termination is the preferable option?
If your doctor recommends abortion, that is all it takes. I faced this decision and no all women do not start pregnancy in good health. Have you heard of hyperemesis? It can be life threatening. I was faced with my doctor recommending I abort, but I didn't and had a perfectly healthy baby. Dr.'s should be able to determine if you should abort and by law will recommend it if your condition is life threatening and then you can decide what to do.
I'll stand on the side of life. Enjoy your "choice".
You wanted statistics and I gave them. So... it sounds to me like you stand on the side of a lifetime of suffering... sounds sooo much more pleasant. As you said to someone else, and I'm paraphrasing... you're bringing your little boy logic to a big boy discussion. Come back when YOU have something substantive other than fingerpointing.
I was adopted,under your sarcasim it would have been better that I was aborted..........I don't see it that way.
LK, wasn't saying things one way or another, and I'm sorry you thought I was being sarcastic. Another poster was always challenging others on not having statistics, although he has yet to provide a single one himself. So, I rose to the challenge.
Also, I would appreciate if you would not presume to what my opinions or beliefs are. My cousin was adopted because my uncle and aunt couldn't have children (for whatever reason). My uncle is Irish/Italian, and my aunt is Chinese descent. After 10 years of waiting, they were blessed with an Irish/Hawaiian daughter for adoption.. a perfect blend given their nationalities.
I, also, would rather a person go to term with a child so that the child has a chance to go to a loving family, but the statistics also don't lie. Although you were lucky enough to be adopted by a loving family, there are many more who are not (over 600k children without a "loving" family). Even children that stay with their biological parents may not be born into a loving family, so the logic in that argument is moot at best, and shouldn't even be brought up.
The other point is that if, and I pray that it's not, abortion becomes illegal, whether I agree or not, I have one argument in the back of my mind. My daughters know I'm not really "for" abortion. So, if they go out, and as young adults do, become pregnant for whatever reason, but the whole process was a mistake (broken condom, whatever), she doesn't want the child. Should she have abstained? Yes. Did she? No. So, she has a choice (saying that abortion becomes illegal), she can have the baby which she knows she doesn't want, or have an abortion. But, since they are illegal, she has to only pay $100 to fast Freddie and his fabulous coat hanger. Now, after the internal bleeding and infections, I have a dead mother and no grandchild either.
Since there is no scientific founding on when life is created (or this debate would be a lot farther along), that argument is also moot from either side of the table.
Finally, for you to personalize this and relate my statement to your point of view or history is egotistical and you need to get over yourself. I have seen many of your posts in different areas and have appreciated your point of view in many. But to say "MY situation turned out okay, so screw everyone else's" goes beyond idiotic. For every grand outcome, there is an equally devastating one.
Statistics were asked for and presented. You can make what you want out of them. But don't belabor me with your ideals of your life and try to find a paradigm to fit it after the fact. Thank you.
If your doctor recommends abortion, that is all it takes. I faced this decision and no all women do not start pregnancy in good health. Have you heard of hyperemesis? It can be life threatening. I was faced with my doctor recommending I abort, but I didn't and had a perfectly healthy baby. Dr.'s should be able to determine if you should abort and by law will recommend it if your condition is life threatening and then you can decide what to do.
I didn't say all women start pregnancy in good health. What I said was that if anti-abortionists manage to prohibit all abortions except for pregnancies that are life-threatening or the result of rape, then women will have to prove that their pregnancy is life-threatening or that they were raped. In many cases, the life-threatening condition doesn't manifest itself until later in the pregnancy, or the possibility of a life-threatening condition is all that a doctor has to go on. A "possibility" may not stand up to the legal requirements. And asking a rape victim to prove that she was raped is already so traumatic a process in our current judicial system, that forcing her to prove it in order to authorize an abortion is doubly traumatic. Currently, there are many places where a doctor's recommendation is completely irrelevant to a woman's ability to obtain an abortion. Law and medicine are two different disciplines, they don't go hand in hand. If laws are passed forbidding women abortions except in certain situations, the law will define those situations, not doctors.
I want to add two things. One, I posted earlier that if my 16 year old daughter was raped, I would support her to decision to abort if that's what she wanted to do. Adoption ha been raised here in the ensuing discussion. I have three adopted children (one of them my 16 year old daughter). Yes, I'm glad their birth mothers did not abort them, BUT, I still stand by my conviction that rape is enough to support abortion. I questioned her on this matter, and she (without my input) clearly stated she would abort in the case of rape.
And second, to those of you who say a embryo is a baby -- in the cases of rape, it if is reported immediately, the hospital will issue a "morning after" pill to the woman. I really doubt that even you purists could construe that as "killing" a baby.
Last edited by colleeng47; 08-18-2008 at 12:04 PM..
Reason: added info
LK, wasn't saying things one way or another, and I'm sorry you thought I was being sarcastic. Another poster was always challenging others on not having statistics, although he has yet to provide a single one himself. So, I rose to the challenge.
Also, I would appreciate if you would not presume to what my opinions or beliefs are. My cousin was adopted because my uncle and aunt couldn't have children (for whatever reason). My uncle is Irish/Italian, and my aunt is Chinese descent. After 10 years of waiting, they were blessed with an Irish/Hawaiian daughter for adoption.. a perfect blend given their nationalities.
I, also, would rather a person go to term with a child so that the child has a chance to go to a loving family, but the statistics also don't lie. Although you were lucky enough to be adopted by a loving family, there are many more who are not (over 600k children without a "loving" family). Even children that stay with their biological parents may not be born into a loving family, so the logic in that argument is moot at best, and shouldn't even be brought up.
The other point is that if, and I pray that it's not, abortion becomes illegal, whether I agree or not, I have one argument in the back of my mind. My daughters know I'm not really "for" abortion. So, if they go out, and as young adults do, become pregnant for whatever reason, but the whole process was a mistake (broken condom, whatever), she doesn't want the child. Should she have abstained? Yes. Did she? No. So, she has a choice (saying that abortion becomes illegal), she can have the baby which she knows she doesn't want, or have an abortion. But, since they are illegal, she has to only pay $100 to fast Freddie and his fabulous coat hanger. Now, after the internal bleeding and infections, I have a dead mother and no grandchild either.
Since there is no scientific founding on when life is created (or this debate would be a lot farther along), that argument is also moot from either side of the table.
Finally, for you to personalize this and relate my statement to your point of view or history is egotistical and you need to get over yourself. I have seen many of your posts in different areas and have appreciated your point of view in many. But to say "MY situation turned out okay, so screw everyone else's" goes beyond idiotic. For every grand outcome, there is an equally devastating one.
Statistics were asked for and presented. You can make what you want out of them. But don't belabor me with your ideals of your life and try to find a paradigm to fit it after the fact. Thank you.
Your statistics prove nothing except the flawed foster care system the US has, which is not reflective of either the pro choice or the pro life movement.
Also, have you heard of Ashermans Syndrome? Look it up --- whether abortion is legal or illegal is moot -- it is caused by d&cs. There are risks with every decision, abortion adoption keeping the baby.....there is no golden pill that will make it all better.
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Just keep popping them out... we need to keep the foster systems, orphanage systems, and AIDs clinics in business!! We can't take care of what we are doing as a society now... and the best answer you can give is "keep popping them out.. they deserve a chance!!" Please.
