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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.88%
No 254 50.40%
Unsure 49 9.72%
Voters: 504. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-14-2023, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,974 posts, read 25,104,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Pretty much.
Wagner is an answer to "Azov" with Russian nationalism rising up in response to Ukrainian nationalism.

Except for all ethnic/minority groups inhabiting Russia for centuries are welcome to join Wagner, no matter what "Nazi" attributes Ukrainian propaganda is trying to ascribe to Utkin (and Wagner in general.)

Russia nationalism rising??? More like the people of Russia who have no interest in invading Ukraine for Putler's glory have fled... Thus leaving behind a higher concentration of people willing to fight for and even die for Russia. Putin's great purification if you will... Except the "prize" for remaining is potentially serving as cannon fodder for his reckless military adventure. Many will no doubt be dragged to the front and sacrificed for Putler's glory.



I think Putin thought he could restore attitudes of pride, glory and patriotism towards the motherland with this war. That's why he has tried (in vain) to push/sell this war to the people as a defensive war. Convince the people that their destruction and doom is imminent unless they rise to the challenge of the invading hordes of the west... Except, there are no invading hordes from the west. Only defenders in Ukraine trying to prevent their nation from being wiped off the face of the map by Russia. And of course, there are international volunteers, mercenaries, etc, which is not unusual for a war like this. Ukraine was the one attacked. Not Russia. In fact, Russia is and still is the invader. All of Putler's propaganda and lies will never change that basic fact.
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:00 PM
 
3,268 posts, read 1,638,545 times
Reputation: 2922
Russia has lost so much money due to the Ukraine war that it's now trying to raise $4 billion by slapping a windfall tax on its oligarchs

https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...all-tax-2023-6

Quote:
The Kremlin is feeling the pinch from its war in Ukraine, so much that it's imposing a one-time windfall tax on large Russian companies and their oligarch owners.

Russia approved a draft bill to slap up to a 10% one-off windfall tax on large Russian companies, according to a Tuesday announcement by the country's finance ministry.

It's targeting companies that annually made more than 1 billion rubles, or $11.9 million, in profits since 2021, per the announcement.

This levy could raise about 300 billion rubles, or $3.6 billion, in taxes collectively, Andrei Belousov, the first deputy prime minister, said in an interview with RBC TV, Interfax reported on Tuesday…
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:01 PM
 
26,877 posts, read 22,743,655 times
Reputation: 10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
“Ethnic groups inhabiting Russia for centuries” makes it sound like they happily migrated to the benevolent Russian lands, when in reality these people were invaded, crushed, and suppressed into submitting to Russian rule.

Whatever it was, they sure fared much better than Indians in America, or the inhabitants of the Belgian Congo for example.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlZlmXyR5M&t=918s



Quote:
Russia calls the self-determination of Ukraine an existential crisis for Russia, because without control of Ukraine there is no more hope for a Russian empire.
There was no "existential crisis" for Russia for 30 years, while Ukraine existed as a separate state.

However American takeover of Ukraine is not part of any "self-determination of Ukraine" any longer and yes, it's a big threat to Russia for many reasons.

And yes, it was a covert American aggression with a long term goal of taking over the world, with Russia being removed from the international stage once and for all as any competing power.



It was a bad idea, biggest Obama's blunder - I can only repeat that much.

Last edited by erasure; 06-14-2023 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:35 PM
 
26,877 posts, read 22,743,655 times
Reputation: 10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Russia nationalism rising??? More like the people of Russia who have no interest in invading Ukraine for Putler's glory have fled... Thus leaving behind a higher concentration of people willing to fight for and even die for Russia. Putin's great purification if you will... Except the "prize" for remaining is potentially serving as cannon fodder for his reckless military adventure. Many will no doubt be dragged to the front and sacrificed for Putler's glory.

You wouldn't know any of it of course while reading Western media, that tells you only about those that have fled. That's why you sound surprised.

But I follow different Russian channels, I observe the situation for what it is, and not for wishful thinking of the Western propaganda.

And that's what I see happening over there.

So yes, their nationalism is on the rise.

Quote:
I think Putin thought he could restore attitudes of pride, glory and patriotism towards the motherland with this war. That's why he has tried (in vain) to push/sell this war to the people as a defensive war. Convince the people that their destruction and doom is imminent unless they rise to the challenge of the invading hordes of the west... Except, there are no invading hordes from the west. Only defenders in Ukraine trying to prevent their nation from being wiped off the face of the map by Russia. And of course, there are international volunteers, mercenaries, etc, which is not unusual for a war like this. Ukraine was the one attacked. Not Russia. In fact, Russia is and still is the invader. All of Putler's propaganda and lies will never change that basic fact.
Look, I don't live in the alternative reality, where the omnipotent Putin says this or that out of a blue and millions are ready to oblige and to believe his words without any proof.

It's the thuggish actions of Ukrainian army towards the Russian POWs and civilian population of the Eastern Ukraine that Russians saw on the their social media and official sites alike, plus a lot of English language with British and American accents that Russians heard coming from the Ukrainian front lines, that explained to them the situation better than any "Putin."

You can't see it/hear it all of course - your knowledge of situation is limited only to what the Western propaganda fed by Ukrainians is allowing you to know.
But as I've said - I know better, because I can see what information Russians have access to, the kind you are apparently unaware of.

And that's why you are arriving to the faulty conclusions, on the basis of the limited info that's available to you.
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:42 PM
 
1,387 posts, read 491,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
“Ethnic groups inhabiting Russia for centuries” makes it sound like they happily migrated to the benevolent Russian lands, when in reality these people were invaded, crushed, and suppressed into submitting to Russian rule.

Russia calls the self-determination of Ukraine an existential crisis for Russia, because without control of Ukraine there is no more hope for a Russian empire.

What? You mean between the various Khanates, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Ottoman Empire, the Ukrainians lived in peaceable bliss? I find that hard to believe. There's still quite the vested interest in retaking historical lands from western Ukraine by Poland, FYI.

Self-determination doesn't entail foreign actors like Victoria Nuland arranging the chessboard in such a way that you have fanatics in a position of authority and can go so far as to threaten their nation's leader with hanging in the streets of Kyev if he doesn't do what they say.
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,974 posts, read 25,104,815 times
Reputation: 28707
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

And yes, it was a covert American aggression with a long term goal of taking over the world, with Russia being removed from the international stage once and for all as any competing power.



It was a bad idea, biggest Obama's blunder - I can only repeat that much.

That's laughable. Obama was the one who famously told Mitt Romney that the 1980's wanted their foreign policy back... All because Romney specifically cited the threat of Russia. Democrats laughed at the time, but now they are taking that threat seriously again.


Russia was never removed from the international stage. Nobody took Russia seriously because their economy is based primarily on exporting oil. The economy of Russia is smaller than the US state of California. That's why Russia was increasingly viewed all over the world as being insignificant and unimportant.


Now people are paying attention to Russia again, which I suppose is what you wanted. But not all publicity is good publicity. There will be many long term ramifications for what Russia has done. Century of humiliation perhaps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You wouldn't know any of it of course while reading Western media, that tells you only about those that have fled. That's why you sound surprised.

But I follow different Russian channels, I observe the situation for what it is, and not for wishful thinking of the Western propaganda.

And that's what I see happening over there.

So yes, their nationalism is on the rise.

Look, I don't live in the alternative reality, where the omnipotent Putin says this or that out of a blue and millions are ready to oblige and to believe his words without any proof.

It's the thuggish actions of Ukrainian army towards the Russian POWs and civilian population of the Eastern Ukraine that Russians saw on the their social media and official sites alike, plus a lot of English language with British and American accents that Russians heard coming from the Ukrainian front lines, that explained to them the situation better than any "Putin."

You can't see it/hear it all of course - your knowledge of situation is limited only to what the Western propaganda fed by Ukrainians is allowing you to know.
But as I've said - I know better, because I can see what information Russians have access to, the kind you are apparently unaware of.

And that's why you are arriving to the faulty conclusions, on the basis of the limited info that's available to you.

I don't even own a television. I watch the combat footage and have seen some of the autocracies both sides have committed. Which of course is to be expected during a war. Russia raped and pillaged their way through Europe in the past and I fully expect them to do the same if they are given even an inch of wiggle room. They also raped and pillaged their way through China during the Boxer rebellion. Pretty much any large conflict Russia involves itself if, there are reports of rape and torture. Ivan is not a righteous saint.
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Old 06-14-2023, 02:58 PM
 
26,877 posts, read 22,743,655 times
Reputation: 10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
That's laughable. Obama was the one who famously told Mitt Romney that the 1980's wanted their foreign policy back... All because Romney specifically cited the threat of Russia. Democrats laughed at the time, but now they are taking that threat seriously again.

Well then laugh all you want.

I don't know what Obama *said*, I am talking about what was going on behind the closed doors and the advise that he took from his adviser Brzezinski regarding Russia and Ukraine.

Because that coup d'etat that took place in Kiev back in 2014 was sponsored by American embassy on Obama's watch.

Quote:
Russia was never removed from the international stage.

As a competitive power I've said.



Quote:
Nobody took Russia seriously because their economy is based primarily on exporting oil. The economy of Russia is smaller than the US state of California. That's why Russia was increasingly viewed all over the world as being insignificant and unimportant.
What's happening now in the world BECAUSE of the conflict with Russia, contradicts your each and every word and the picture that you tried to paint for yourself for many years apparently.

Quote:
Now people are paying attention to Russia again, which I suppose is what you wanted. But not all publicity is good publicity. There will be many long term ramifications for what Russia has done. Century of humiliation perhaps.

It's not what I "want" or "don't want" - I am simply observing what's taking place. How many things came in motion globally, because of the "such insignificant country" as Russia.

Quote:
I don't even own a television.

But you own a computer, so your choice of the sources of info are as good as owning TV apparently.
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Old 06-14-2023, 03:09 PM
 
26,877 posts, read 22,743,655 times
Reputation: 10072
And speaking of Russia's insignificance - just saw this on twitter -

https://twitter.com/narrative_hole/s...29568386719750


Russian trolling I guess?
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Old 06-14-2023, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,974 posts, read 25,104,815 times
Reputation: 28707
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Well then laugh all you want.

I don't know what Obama *said*, I am talking about what was going on behind the closed doors and the advise that he took from his adviser Brzezinski regarding Russia and Ukraine.

Because that coup d'etat that took place in Kiev back in 2014 was sponsored by American embassy on Obama's watch.




As a competitive power I've said.




What's happening now in the world BECAUSE of the conflict with Russia, contradicts your each and every word and the picture that you tried to paint for yourself for many years apparently.




It's not what I "want" or "don't want" - I am simply observing what's taking place. How many things came in motion globally, because of the "such insignificant country" as Russia.




But you own a computer, so your choice of the sources of info are as good as owning TV apparently.

You're under the illusion that it is everyone else who is brainwashed... Yet here you are...




Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
And speaking of Russia's insignificance - just saw this on twitter -

https://twitter.com/narrative_hole/s...29568386719750


Russian trolling I guess?

Posting Russian state media drivel and propaganda. Biden sucks. Everyone knows that. That doesn't make Putin or Russia "the good guys".
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Old 06-14-2023, 03:31 PM
 
26,877 posts, read 22,743,655 times
Reputation: 10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
You're under the illusion that it is everyone else who is brainwashed... Yet here you are...







Posting Russian state media drivel and propaganda. Biden sucks. Everyone knows that. That doesn't make Putin or Russia "the good guys".

I already said many times that the only "good guys" in this story are Donbass and its inhabitants that were betrayed by Putin, and the part of Russian population that supported Donbass through thick and thin since 2014.
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