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Game, set, match. GNT explicitly concedes the actual argument.
No ... sorry the actual argument was not that a democratic republic is possible ... the argument was that the United States of America was one. And that is patently false, not just according to me, but to James Madison and all of the other founding fathers.
Last edited by CaseyB; 07-21-2013 at 11:08 AM..
Reason: rude
Words evolve over time, English today is vastly different from what it was in 1713,
Stop ... some words change over time ... not the words we're dealing with however. This is the same IDIOT argument all leftists use to explain why " .... shall not be infringed" means can infringe if there is a reason. You're a fraud, and your ideological com-padres/comrades are liars and con artists. Find some one else to peddle this tripe to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lerner
The idea of a true "Democracy" in the ancient Hellenic city-state sense is largely irrelevant in highly populated modern states, but it's existence as a pure ideal and its tenants (such as power derived from popular legitimacy) inspired most of the great thinkers and statesmen that have built today's liberal states. In the modern discipline of Political Science, different regimes, sources of legitimacy, and systems of rule are organized among a number of different categories, like putting organisms into families and phyla (Democracy, Oligarchy, Monarchy, etc.). Within these groups dozens of sub-groups and specific systems of government exist, and a constitutional republic would fall under the representative democracy category.
Again, pure nonsense, and that is according to James Madison, not me. But go ahead ... we already have one brain dead nitwit professing to know more about the matter than our founding fathers. Why not have an idiot party, and all of you can come and reveal yourselves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lerner
I suppose someone might declare that ONLY a direct democracy is a democracy. Sure, why not. This is more or less a semantic argument at that point.
It's not even close to that. Perhaps you haven't read the thread carefully ... but no matter what form of democracy you care to examine ... the fundamental premise of a democracy is that of the people in majority dictate policy ... while it is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of America at the time the constitution was adopted, did not even allow a majority vote ... precluding any form of democracy, by what ever name you care to assign to it.
That's not the definition of a democracy, nor is it the definition of how the nation was governed in the beginning.
Now if you want to discuss how things are today ... this very minute .... then you'd be wrong now too, as we are living under a foreign controlled oligarchy ... which has convinced the sheep, through decades of repeating the same lies, that they voted for this crap sandwich we are being fed. But I know no one who did ... except maybe you ... i can see you voting for this ... but no one else.
Rome was a republic, before it was a dictatorship. It fell due to internal corruption and imperial overstretch
The constitutional republic of the US is being/has been taken over by a shadow government, spearheaded by the massive surveillance system and egged on by multinationals. The US will fall due to internal corruption, imperial overstretch, economic overreach and environmental decay. Perhaps ethnic/cultural strife as well.
All posts that purport to show the difference between a Republic and a Democracy, are always anti-democracy. In that, they desire people to understand that we don't like in an actual democracy, and so the will of the majority should not always simply be done.
This is a true statement. And you can most certainly blame a lack of education on the inability to understand not only the difference between a Republic and a Democracy, but also the reason why we were created with a "Republican" form of government to begin with.
Terms get kind of confused. Some people talk about western governments as "Social democracies". Thomas Jefferson was part of the "Democratic Republican" party here in the early years of the United States.
For the purpose of being more clear. Instead of calling ourselves a Republic, in which most people don't seem to really understand the definition. I would rather call this country a "Constitutionally-limited federal democracy, with constitutionally-limited supremacy over constitutionally-limited decentralized democratic states".
Of course, none of this addresses the real intention of this post. And that is the concern that our government is becoming less limited by our constitution. In that, the constitution is being interpreted to allow the government far more authority than it was ever intended to have.
And the reason the government is grabbing more and more power? That is easy, its because the people want it to have more power. The people have become despotic, because they understand the benefits of doing so. The political system has become despotic. And it isn't even a democracy really. But rather, our political system is controlled and guided by special interests.
What can be done about it? Nothing really. Outside of revolution. Because otherwise, it would require a majority of people, who are already getting what they want, to abandon a system that allows them to have what they want, for a system in which they don't.
Education is not enough.
"I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin
Good points, actually the reason that I began this thread to begin with was to clarify the importance of the Constitution. It seems today as if the Constitution is under constant attack and I have even seen people on this forum question the need for the Constitution at all.
It made me wonder how many people even understood what kind of Government we have, or at least are supposed to have.
That's not the definition of a democracy, nor is it the definition of how the nation was governed in the beginning.
No. It was the CIA's definition of a Republic. It even said so.
How did you miss that?
And yes, since "in the beginning" the nation was governed under The Articles of Confederation, it is not "the definition of how the nation was governed in the beginning." It is however a definition of how the nation has been governed ever since the ratification of the Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Now if you want to discuss how things are today ... this very minute .... then you'd be wrong now too, as we are living under a foreign controlled oligarchy
There you go again, leaping off the nutburger bridge.
No ... sorry the actual argument was not that a democratic republic is possible ... the argument was that the United States of America was one.
Please, try to keep up.
First, reread the title of the thread. The argument was that republics and democracies are two mutually exclusive things. They are not, and you have fully conceded that point.
The corollary argument that developed quickly after the OP was whether or not the US is a democracy.
And yes... it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
And that is patently false, not just according to me, but to James Madison and all of the other founding fathers.
We have already exposed your dishonest edition of Madison's words in the effort to make it sound like he was saying something very different than he actually was. Your persistence in the face of that failure is droll.
First, reread the title of the thread. The argument was that republics and democracies are two mutually exclusive things. They are not, and you have fully conceded that point.
The corollary argument that developed quickly after the OP was whether or not the US is a democracy.
And yes... it is.
We have already exposed your dishonest edition of Madison's words in the effort to make it sound like he was saying something very different than he actually was. Your persistence in the face of that failure is droll.
Hey Mr know it all, I titled the thread and as usual you are absolutly wrong, but hey do not let that stop you from spewing BS because afterall I am sure you know more about the argument I was making that I do.
And while you are at it, explain what kind of democracy it is that ignores the will of the people, as this government does on pretty much a continual basis. I mean please tell us how you voted on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, the Patriot Act, Obama Care, TSA, and the multitude of so called Executive Orders that have been shoved down the peoples throats dispite majority opposition. This must be the liberal deffinition of democracy.... we will decide what you want.
Hey Mr know it all, I titled the thread and as usual you are absolutly wrong, but hey do not let that stop you from spewing BS because afterall I am sure you know more about the argument I was making that I do.
I do know more about the argument you were making than you do. Most smart people know more about the argument you were making than you do.
The argument you were making is fractally false. It fails at every level of analysis.
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