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Old 02-19-2012, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,443 posts, read 4,898,827 times
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.
Brazilian Archbishop Dom Helder Camera
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,108 posts, read 14,400,897 times
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If you're compelled to labor for the benefit of another, by socialist government, you're a WHAT?
If you're dispossessed for the benefit of another, by socialist government, you're WHAT?

Socialism - the "new way" to say theft and slavery by government.

Which is contrary to the ideal that governments are instituted among men to secure their rights, endowed by their Creator.
Of course, America's socialism is 100% voluntary - via FICA.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,727 posts, read 6,260,310 times
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"The goal of Socialism is Communism."

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,813 posts, read 24,516,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShoe View Post
"The goal of Socialism is Communism."

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Yeah, because we should take his word.



How about an informative debate, if you can muster one.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:26 PM
 
15,273 posts, read 8,794,636 times
Reputation: 7616
I would contend that no matter what "philosophy" one adopts ... be it socialism, capitalism or a blend of the two, the results will not be predicated upon the system itself, but of the people within the system, both leadership and the common individual, and the collective of society.

In other words, there is no "right system", only "right people". And socialism is no more immune to corruption and the resulting degradation of the system than is capitalism.

Given the various predispositions of human beings ... to include the honest and hard working, to the exceptionally wise and unselfish, all the way to the dishonest, greedy and conniving ... and various degrees in between ... it's the constant balance of those opposing forces of good and bad that will determine if a "ideological system" promotes and achieves good or bad outcomes.

I would call upon history as the proof of that, given the disastrous outcomes of so many socialist states we have as examples. While at the same time, we see the extreme negatives that can be produced under so called "capitalism", simply by observing the conditions now taking form in the US.

Socialists could rightly point to certain modern Scandinavian socialist countries and their achievements which greatly exceed the results we see in the US by a fairly wide margin, as proof of socialism's superiority, but it would be an error to jump to such a conclusion, no matter how reasonable such a thought might seem. Solutions must fit the scale of the problems, and applying the same methods that might produce great results in a country of 8 Million people, may be a total disaster applied to a country of 300+ Million.

The first point here is, it's always easier to manage a small group than a large one. This is true whether you are dealing with a business, or a nation. The citizens have a much easier time of it policing and monitoring and making changes to their "City Council" than they are going to have dealing with the United States Congress ... the smaller the beast, the easier to tame, the larger the beast the greater the danger. As the old adage suggests, a government given the power to provide everything, also has the power to take everything away.

The second most important element of any system are the relative levels of education, wisdom and values of its citizenry, particularly as that might facilitate the citizenry's close monitoring of it's leadership and their conduct, ensuring such conduct is consistent with the best interests of those citizens. This is far easier to achieve on a smaller scale, than a larger one, both in terms of sound leadership successfully promoting overall equity in the system, as well as the political organization and effectiveness of the citizenry ensuring that leadership doesn't stray from it's commitment to that goal.

This reality is the singularly greatest argument against the fundamental philosophy of "socialism" and it's statist underpinnings. What seems to work so well for Finland, for example, was an unmitigated nightmare in the former Soviet Union. In this case, size really does matter and the larger the nation, the less likely "Socialism" can fulfill it's promises.

We see this clearly unfolding in the United States, as decade to decade the power of the individual states has slowly been usurped by an ever growing bureaucratic federal beast that no longer serves the best interests of the citizenry, and is made up largely of the dishonest, corrupt minions of the power elite. This beast has grown too large and too powerful for the citizenry to command, which now subjugates rather than serves. Handing more power to that beast in the form of socialistic mechanisms is shear suicidal, regardless of what is working in Sweden or Finland.

The one guarantee, regardless of system, is the ever present threat of the greedy, corrupt, service to self individuals capturing the roles of leadership, because that is precisely the roles most sought by such types. Leadership is power ... power to do good, and power to do bad. Ironically, the honest, service to others oriented individual who is best suited to leadership roles are the least likely to seek such positions, and do so only out of a sense of selflessness and desire to serve, and only when encouraged. It is the corrupt, greedy, and power hungry that strive for such positions, and will eventually capture those leadership roles if permitted to by the collective citizenry. That's precisely the reason why those who embrace small, limited federal government power, and the preeminence of State autonomy are absolutely on the right track ... the smaller the beast, the easier to control by the people.

This is also why it is imperative that we collectively reject and defeat the push toward Progressive Socialism coming from the left here in the United States ... not because Socialism is so inherently bad or so much worse than what we have now, only that it will facilitate the further advancement of what we see unfolding now. This includes the plan of "Globalism", and globalist desires for a "One World Government". The globalists are achieving great strides in advancing toward their goals of world government under the pretext of moving further left toward progressive socialism. Should we allow them to be successful, the results can only be expected to render a "Soviet Union" style monster on steroids, which will facilitate a level of tyranny never before seen in human history, having no resemblance to the forms of socialism seen in Scandinavia.

This really is plain, old fashioned common sense. When the government fears the people, you have liberty, and when the people fear government you have tyranny. Which of these conditions is most likely to be realized by a powerful central government which controls all aspects of society?

Rational thought, and practical reality are the greatest enemies of progressive socialism. A clear mind capable of critical thought and free of ideological dogma can easily see the false promises underlying progressive socialism's covert agenda of achieving absolute State power over the people. And absolute power always does what? It absolutely corrupts, and inevitably produces mass suffering under it's merciless elitist leaders. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, just to name a few, are the inevitable consequence of succumbing to such childlike fantasies of a Utopian society so long as basic human nature includes such tyrannical types within it's midst.

Last edited by CaseyB; 02-19-2012 at 06:11 PM.. Reason: response to deletion
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,268 posts, read 22,621,615 times
Reputation: 23940
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
I keep seeing people from the left side of things talk about who does and who doesn't know what socialism. Those people keep coming in with the differences between communism and socialism. Well now here is what I find socialism is right from the website CPUSA. That would be Communist Party USA. Wonderful place to read when you do it for fun as I do. Anyway, here is their definition of socialism and why capitalism is so bad. Take a chance of learning how Communists see the world, especially the USA.


"Twenty-first century science and technology make it possible for all the world's people to have good food, good health, good education, a good job and a fulfilling life."

"What stands in the way? Capitali$m - an economic and political system that puts profits before people"


These are the two first things you find on this page. Does any of this sound a lot like what we hear right here at C-D pretty often.

Feeling locked out of the American Dream? » cpusa

This defines socialism as communists see it and also tears a chunk out of our capitalistic system.
That is a definition of communism. Duh- you went to a Communist website. If you want a definition of socialism, go to a Socialist website!

That seems bonehead stupid simple to me. What complicated it for you, Old Boy?

What you did was the equivalent of describing conservatism by going to a Nazi site for the definition.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:39 PM
 
15,273 posts, read 8,794,636 times
Reputation: 7616
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
That is a definition of communism. Duh- you went to a Communist website. If you want a definition of socialism, go to a Socialist website!

That seems bonehead stupid simple to me. What complicated it for you, Old Boy?

What you did was the equivalent of describing conservatism by going to a Nazi site for the definition.
Seems to me that it's boneheaded stupid to ask a bank robber if he's guilty of robbing the bank, or if the wife beater thinks he's abusive.

What do you expect to hear from a Socialist about Socialism? Hmmm? You think they are going to highlight their philosophical flaws, or (GASP) agree that the differences between Socialism and Communism boils down to the difference between execution by hanging as compared to a firing squad?

Mike? Let's ask the global warmists if the globe is really warming .... let's ask the Federal Reserve if they are honest ... let's ask Obama if we should vote for him in 2012. Sounds like a plan!!

Last edited by GuyNTexas; 02-19-2012 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,429,957 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
That is a definition of communism. Duh- you went to a Communist website. If you want a definition of socialism, go to a Socialist website!

That seems bonehead stupid simple to me. What complicated it for you, Old Boy?

What you did was the equivalent of describing conservatism by going to a Nazi site for the definition.
I learned in college in the early 50s that communism is an extreme form of socialism. It still makes sense to me although the "Cold War" is over. I was not looking for a definition of socialism when I made one of my too infrequent ventures to the communist website. I get a kick out of what I read there so thought I would share it with progressives like you. I am very sorry that you don't like truth when it slaps you in the face. I will be posting more from that site soon and you might just ignore it to keep from being hurt.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,429,957 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Yeah, because we should take his word.



How about an informative debate, if you can muster one.
Lenin did say just that. When you are ready to debate I am.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,813 posts, read 24,516,987 times
Reputation: 8674
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
Lenin did say just that. When you are ready to debate I am.
Of course Lenin said that, I'm not saying he didn't.

But saying that Lenin approved of socialism is like saying Hitler preferred dictatorships.

Read post 77, we'll debate that.
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