Types of Socialism (salaries, polls, accuse, lobbyists)
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Coming from a socialist country it amazes me when people on here condemn "Socialism' and yet do not have the faintest idea how it works or indeed what it actually does.
I have repeatedly said on here that Socialism and communism act in two entirely different ways.
Communism as an ideal can never work as it implies that everyone has equal everything and that is impossible so the Communist Countries end up more like a dictatorship with the wealthy and powerful "controllers" having the lions share of the wealth, power and decission making and will keep their wealth etc at all costs, while the poorer less wealthy work harder and get much much less. ( remind you of anywhere?????? lol )
Socialism has a safety net for anyone in society whoFalls into hard times, sickness, unemployment etc. The main doctrine is that the whole is more important than the few. Socialism has to work under certain constraints or it would fall apart and be easy prey for the work shy or anyone who wants to "scam" the system. No one in the UK, for example, has any problem with paying tax for the benefit of all (including themselves) as they know that by paying taxes for health, education, welfare etc will benefit themselves too and to shoot yourself or your family in the foot just because you have some kind of indignant phobia about someone getting benefit from your tax is self defeating. Even though resentment can occur when you look at certain people getting benefits when they refuse to work for it, we also realise that by having the i'm 'alright Jack" is far more harmfull to everyone than having a good welfare state.
Socialism cannot work on its own and in a vacuum and neither can Capitalism.... they must work hand in hand for the benefit of everyone. America has socialism but it is reserved for the wealthy, Govt. bail outs etc.
I love it when i hear from the "anti Socialism brigade" her who sing a completely different tune when they lose their jobs or healthcare.... then it becomes OK for the Govt. to step in with financial help. I saw the wealthy in California wanting Govt. payouts to rebuiold their multi million pound homes after they had been devestated by forest fires.... "not our fault' thry cried.... well it's not someones fault either if they get Cancer but of course the less well of are "at fault" in not having or being able to afford health care....... This double standard and hypocracy is rife in the USA. It becomes the Socialist boogeyman if the poorer want help but a 'right" if the wealthy want a handout. Socialism is used as the big bad excuse so as not to help anyone but the wealthy.
Socialism must have restraints and checks to make sure it is not abused but so does Capitalism otherwise it becomes a system that is one sided and unfair to many.
Pretty much the only reason why so many reactionary right wing Americans hate socialists/socialism is because both the USSR and the Nazi party had it in their respective names.
They'd rather label and demonize anyone to the left of them as "liberal socialist Nazi pig Commies" rather than even attempt to remotely understand anything. (First being, of course, that Liberalism is not the same as Socialism.)
Where would the social democrat model fit in America? Far left or just left. I would guess true socialists are pretty rare (5%?).
Well the Democrats are mostly classical and social liberals. For the most part, social democrats are non existent, but there are probably a few that could be considered as such within the party.
Social Democracy bridges the gap between social liberalism and democratic socialism, basically, with market socialism being very close to democratic socialism (usually having a wider net cast on either side of DS).
It's easier to show you in Canada:
The Liberals are most similar to the Democrats in the US.
The NDP is a social democrat/democratic socialist combination party.
Coming from a socialist country it amazes me when people on here condemn "Socialism' and yet do not have the faintest idea how it works or indeed what it actually does.
I have repeatedly said on here that Socialism and communism act in two entirely different ways.
Communism as an ideal can never work as it implies that everyone has equal everything and that is impossible so the Communist Countries end up more like a dictatorship with the wealthy and powerful "controllers" having the lions share of the wealth, power and decission making and will keep their wealth etc at all costs, while the poorer less wealthy work harder and get much much less. ( remind you of anywhere?????? lol )
Socialism has a safety net for anyone in society whoFalls into hard times, sickness, unemployment etc. The main doctrine is that the whole is more important than the few. Socialism has to work under certain constraints or it would fall apart and be easy prey for the work shy or anyone who wants to "scam" the system. No one in the UK, for example, has any problem with paying tax for the benefit of all (including themselves) as they know that by paying taxes for health, education, welfare etc will benefit themselves too and to shoot yourself or your family in the foot just because you have some kind of indignant phobia about someone getting benefit from your tax is self defeating. Even though resentment can occur when you look at certain people getting benefits when they refuse to work for it, we also realise that by having the i'm 'alright Jack" is far more harmfull to everyone than having a good welfare state.
Socialism cannot work on its own and in a vacuum and neither can Capitalism.... they must work hand in hand for the benefit of everyone. America has socialism but it is reserved for the wealthy, Govt. bail outs etc.
I love it when i hear from the "anti Socialism brigade" here who sing a completely different tune when they lose their jobs or healthcare.... then it becomes OK for the Govt. to step in with financial help. I saw the wealthy in California wanting Govt. payouts to rebuild their multi million dollar homes after they had been devestated by forest fires.... "not our fault' thry cried.... well it's not someones fault either if they get Cancer but of course the less well of are "at fault" in not having or being able to afford health care....... This double standard and hypocracy is rife in the USA. It becomes the Socialist boogeyman if the poorer want help but a 'right" if the wealthy want a handout. Socialism is used as the big bad excuse so as not to help anyone but the wealthy.
Socialism must have restraints and checks to make sure it is not abused but so does Capitalism otherwise it becomes a system that is one sided and unfair to many.
Yea, my wife works at a food stamp office, and she always is shocked by the tattooed white guy who comes in the door ranting about Obama and socialism, signs a few forms, and goes out the door ranting about Obama and socialism with his food stamps in hand. Happens all the time.
That is why I call bs. on all the antitax stuff. When these conservatives retire, and they need the social net,they will use it,but their selfishness during their earning years will ensure it will not be their for their kids unless the kids have double the tax rates they enjoyed. Very, very few people will leave an "entitlement" on the table when they think they can get it, although many will whine about funding it.
Coming from a socialist country it amazes me when people on here condemn "Socialism' and yet do not have the faintest idea how it works or indeed what it actually does.
When the Guardian Limited had a discussion forum, a really excellent one by the way, I used to argue that the political arguments between Republicans and Democrats wasn't about "left of right" as the rest of the world understands it but rather a fight between to thoroughly capitalist parties arguing over how to tinker with the system.
Quote:
Communism as an ideal can never work
Here's what I think; communism won't work until there is a change in the mentality of individuals a change that ultimately must take place because at some point the world economy simply will not be able to employ large numbers of the population as technology will inevitably replace human labor in virtually every regard. At that point, some mechanism for supporting the populace will have to replace what we have presently. Now will this be in the next 100 years or the next 10,000, I don't know. But I do know that eventually capitalism will no longer be suited for the transfer of goods and services and thus wealth to the populace.
Pretty much the only reason why so many reactionary right wing Americans hate socialists/socialism is because both the USSR and the Nazi party had it in their respective names.
They'd rather label and demonize anyone to the left of them as "liberal socialist Nazi pig Commies" rather than even attempt to remotely understand anything. (First being, of course, that Liberalism is not the same as Socialism.)
Absolutely.... they think that if they scream loud enough about the "sins" of socialism that the majority will hide under their beds and shake in their boots in case the "Evil' of socialism destroys them.... unfortunately many in America are swayed and frightened by the ignorant lies. All these people who scream loudly that Socialism is evil or will destroy America reminds me of the saying that "empty vessels make the loudest noises"
Here's what I think; communism won't work until there is a change in the mentality of individuals a change that ultimately must take place because at some point the world economy simply will not be able to employ large numbers of the population as technology will inevitably replace human labor in virtually every regard. At that point, some mechanism for supporting the populace will have to replace what we have presently. Now will this be in the next 100 years or the next 10,000, I don't know. But I do know that eventually capitalism will no longer be suited for the transfer of goods and services and thus wealth to the populace.
True communism and true capitalism won't work for the exact same reason: People's greed taking over the system.
Unfortunately, in the US, the conservatives want to drive us further towards the right fiscally even though we are already way too far to the right.
Yea, my wife works at a food stamp office, and she always is shocked by the tattooed white guy who comes in the door ranting about Obama and socialism, signs a few forms, and goes out the door ranting about Obama and socialism with his food stamps in hand. Happens all the time. I agree with you and this is what i mean about too many here picking up a "catchphrase" and mimicking the right wing media even though they don't realise what they are saying.... They are unhappy about their life so they copy sounbites even though they are condemning themselves...idiots!
That is why I call bs. on all the antitax stuff. When these conservatives retire, and they need the social net,they will use it,but their selfishness during their earning years will ensure it will not be their for their kids unless the kids have double the tax rates they enjoyed. Very, very few people will leave an "entitlement" on the table when they think they can get it, although many will whine about funding it.
You are sooo right. Ok to be complaicent until it affects you...... Idiots too!
My god, we are two pages into a discussion about socialism that has yet to be marked by crazies or ad hominem attacks! Am I on the right forum???
It's a proud moment in City-Data history.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
But I do know that eventually capitalism will no longer be suited for the transfer of goods and services and thus wealth to the populace.
I believe that as well, although I just wonder when that will occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psulions2007
True communism and true capitalism won't work for the exact same reason: People's greed taking over the system.
Unfortunately, in the US, the conservatives want to drive us further towards the right fiscally even though we are already way too far to the right.
If you compare our Liberals to those in Europe, they look Conservative. It bothers me hearing that they are on the same level when they clearly are not.
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