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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorrysda
Darn! If one stops to think about it, the reason we have this idiot in office is due to the lack of knowledge that so many voters seem to have about how things work. Many of us knew as soon as BO opened his mouth in his first campaign speech that he did not know what he was talking about.
Please, if you'd stop and think you'd realize the reason we have this idiot in office is because of the idiot he replaced and the idiot that idiot's party ran against this idiot.
YOU were the one that made it a Republican thing, as if all Republicans wish to bow to corporations. Closing those loopholes for large companies, like Obamas friend GE, is only forcing them to pay the existing tax tables. Raising tax rates to an already broken system is rediculous. That was my point which you clearly ignored.
People need to get off the Democrat/Republican infighting bandwagon and move to backing a Fair Tax, IMHO. As for Obama being dumber than dirt... not even close. The guy is smart enough to warn everyone of what he'd do and still got elected. Now that the spell is wearing off people are coming out of their comas, I hope.
The US is the biggest market in the world. Corporations should be taxed on the basis of what they sell here so even if they exported our jobs overseas and the income taxes from those employees is unavailable, the corps are still liable for the privilege of doing business in the U.S.
It is much harder for me to grasp the nature of a tax on a corporation that makes sense. Your “commons†analogy relies on the concept of shared resource and government restriction for common good. It is pretty rare and very specific.
Yes, there are some rare examples when a tax will drive down demand for a resource that can be depleted.
I suppose another example would be the social engineering related to sin taxes. The theory there being that raising taxes will help to limit exposure to self destructive behavior. I am not sure I buy into that unless the tax becomes prohibitive and then all you do is create black markets. And I am sure that social engineering on that level is bad form at best… and downright immoral most of the time.
I can agree on the periphery there are instances where one can argue for both subsidies and taxes… And I agree that it require attention to nuance. However by and large, what we are talking about here. Mr. Obama’s desire to raise taxes on Oil Companies because the price of gas is too high defies logic.
I can agree with 95% of what you wrote so it's clear you have a solid foundation of economics and some of the recent discussions about these issues.
My main point about the tragedy of the commons is that companies will always externalize costs if possible, heck, that's their main purpose. They're externalizing machines. Most taxes on corporations are more negative then positive just like with subsidies or tax credits which ultimately distort markets and reward parties for political reasons rather then purely economic reasons and so it should mostly be avoided. The tax man will still get a wack at those corporate profits when the shareholders get ahold of them.
That said, some tax policy on corporations are both needed and necessary in order to discourage companies from becoming bad actors who act in ways which unfairly harm others (usually by forcing them to shoulder the cost of externalized costs) because it is in everyone's interest to discourage bad agency. For instance Walmart just loves to externalize health care costs to tax payers by encouraging low paid employees to sign up for welfare. Most of Walmart's competitors don't do that and instead offer better benefits so the general public isn't burdened by the additional welfare costs and a belief that over the long term treating employees slightly better means lower turn over, lower training costs, and more experienced workers who are more likely to know how to better serve customers. Walmart is exhibiting bad agency here by attempting to externalize costs to the general public so I'd be fine with some sort of tax forcing Walmart to pay for the folks they bus to the welfare office. This tax discourages the incentives to behave in ways which harm most of the population and so we'll see less of the bad behavior over time.
Another classic example seen over and over in the 3rd world is a logging company clear cuts all the trees on public land (sometimes legally, sometimes illegally by simply bribing cops to look the other way). Farmers and even cities down hill then experience huge floods when it rains, floods of mud coming off eroded hillsides, property damage, and yet he rivers start drying up during the summer when they used to flow year round. This is another example of a bad actor causing huge damage to private citizens simply because they don't want to pay the cost of using standard industry practices. There for a tax/fee on such companies which pays into a fund to minimize such impacts to public and private land owners is also pretty reasonable (use the money to replant deforested areas if possible or to hire rangers to help stop illegal logging etc...).
This can be done for just about every externalized cost which harms the general citizenry but which companies will do if they think they can save a dime. Personally I'd prefer this only happened as a last resort and that individual consumers should punish bad actors harming the commons with boycotts or consumer awareness education but as a last resort taxes to punish bad actors seem reasonable to me. Taxes to pay for government services companies directly consume also seems reasonable (that's more of a service fee then a tax but the end result is the same I guess). So while I agree that business taxes generally are less justified then personal income taxes or consumption taxes but up above you said all business taxes were bad and I can think of several which are reasonable simply because they make companies pay costs they tried to dump on others via bad agency.
Most large businesses have the money to hire high end accountants with fancy tax avoidance schemes or to pay lobbyists to buy special favors from politicians so that large businesses usually get out of paying almost all business taxes especially the business income/profit tax because it's so easy to hide the profits or wash them through the balance sheets of dozens of subsidiaries. The only suckers who get hit and actually have to pay business taxes are small businesses and less profitable medium sized businesses because they don't have the money for thousands of lawyers to spend all year figuring out how to get out of taxes or to bribe politicians for pork.
That said large businesses create very, very few new jobs in the US (and haven't for decades) but they do plow most of their profits into expanding operations over seas which does help the over all economy (indirectly) when those profits are repatriated to shareholders (eventually). That said the small and mid sized companies are the ones who create virtually all of our net new jobs and cutting business taxes would help them since they actually still pay them plus it would improve efficiency in allocation of resources in parts of the economy because the big businesses wouldn't have to hire so many accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists to get out of paying so that means that money could be used doing something actually economically constructive.
ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH !!! This Bunch Don't Know Bllody OWT !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003
So, gas prices are way up. Oil company profits are up. Oil companies take advantage of deductions that our government has determined will change their behavior.
So what does Obama propose??? Increase oil company taxes by removing the deductions. Now guess what happens when you increase taxes on oil companies????????
You guessed it. They INCREASE gas prices to cover the increased taxes.
Our fearless leader thinks we are dumb... and maybe we are, but not so dumb to believe his political rhetoric.
Raising taxes on oil companies will increase, not decrease, prices at the pump.
Roadking2003 !!! ... On The Money !
Indeed mates... The daft "DINO" voters have absolutely earned the pathetic title of bloody "Puddin Heads" for their insanity during the last big election ! ... Quite !
Upon further consideration of HO and crew ... What in bloody hades did the good folks in the states ever do to deserve these clueless blighters !!!
So, gas prices are way up. Oil company profits are up. Oil companies take advantage of deductions that our government has determined will change their behavior.
So what does Obama propose??? Increase oil company taxes by removing the deductions. Now guess what happens when you increase taxes on oil companies????????
You guessed it. They INCREASE gas prices to cover the increased taxes.
Our fearless leader thinks we are dumb... and maybe we are, but not so dumb to believe his political rhetoric.
Raising taxes on oil companies will increase, not decrease, prices at the pump.
You conveniently left out the oil companies are projected to report record profit.
Once again uninformed people fall for the corporate okie-doke.
He's not stupid, but he obviously thinks the people who voted for him are stupid...AND he's hoping there'll be a few more out there that will believe his message: that he's PUNISHING the big, bad oil companies by taxing them. Little do those people know, that he's NOT punishing the oil companies. He's adding to the people's expenses because that tax will be passed right on to them...so NOW, they not only have to pay more for the gas itself, they get to pay the additional tax.
What's really stupid is thinking that the President of the United States can wave a magic wand and gas prices which are set on INTERNATIONAL MARKETS and are affected by INTERNATIONAL EVENTS will go down.
I said this back in 2008 when gas prices went up under George W. Bush and I'm saying it now.
There are relatively few things the President can in a MARKET BASED INTERNATIONAL ECONOMY to control the price of a commodity.
There are long term geopolitical and economic events that are going to continue to put upward pricing pressure on just about every commodity in the world from metals, to food, to gas to other natural resources used in industrial processes. The reality is that fast growing economies in other parts of the world now compete for resources that most Americans took for granted would alway be available cheaply.l
I can assure you from first hand personal experience that taxes play a very big part in how corporations price their products.
Increasing corporate taxes will almost always increase prices.
I know if I keep waiting you will be right about something eventually. Unless it is something hit by an excise tax (and we do still have several of those: foreign grown sugar, gasoline, alcohol, tobacco come to mind), is one of the very few manufactured goods we still tariff (some car parts come to mind and so do large airplanes), or you're an opportunist trying to farm the tax loopholes & subsidies lobbyists have written into the tax code (the clean coal shysters or the liars claiming corn ethanol subsidies reduce US dependence on foreign oil) then taxes just aren't that big of an issue for most businesses. Not unless they're an extremely low margin business like retail or fast food anyway or if you just can't afford a decent accountant which specializes in the industry you work in because they're a gold mine for tax planning needs.
Payroll is many times larger as a cost for my department then any business taxes, the need for qualified workers who actually have the specialized skills we need is way more important then any taxes, the cost of office space (which is only minority tied to local property taxes) is a bigger concern for my employer and those of us in management. Heck, I'd even put the availability of enough transportation options (flights, ports, rail road capacity, freeways which aren't gridlocked for trucks, etc...) or availability of high speed internet access or great wireless connections for cellphones as more important for most professional businesses employing skilled workers then taxes. Talk about crying over one of the smallest items on the list and completely ignoring the costs which make up most of the budget.
HO the Magnificent ! Harrrrrrrrrrr ! ...Har ! There Maties!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorrysda
Darn! If one stops to think about it, the reason we have this idiot in office is due to the lack of knowledge that so many voters seem to have about how things work. Many of us knew as soon as BO opened his mouth in his first campaign speech that he did not know what he was talking about.
It has been stated on this forum many times that "CORPORATIONS/BUSINESSES NEVER" pay taxes, in essence because every single "cost of doing business" is added to the price of whatever product/service/etc. they provide and it is continued to be passed down through every business involved in bringing this product/service/etc. to the final consumer WHO PAYS ALL THE TAXES of every single business up the line!
Please, folks! Understand that this crap about "business/corporations must pay their fair share" is just that...crap. BO is blowing smoke and so are all politicians who try to spin this tactic! Crap, folks...its crap!
That's why the Income Tax and the IRS should be abolished and a consumption tax put in its place...NOT IN ADDITION TO, BUT PUT IN ITS PLACE! Then, every penny spent, including all illegal/drug/etc., $'s would be taxed when spent.
lorrysda !!! ... Precisely !
Indeed Mates... There is much wisdom in this post for those who would but comprehend !!! What !
Ta / Ole Sgt. Lamar
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ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH !!! This Bunch Don't Know Bllody OWT !!!
... What in bloody hades did the good folks in the states ever do to deserve these clueless blighters !!!
