Ethnic/cultural diversity--more in Pittsburgh or Columbus, OH? (Washington, Bloomfield: crime, established neighborhood)
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The OP started both threads at the same time. Lack of participation is a clue.
That is quite telling.
I have to say I don't know Columbus, but I think if you look at diversity outside of race and color, you will find that Pittsburgh could be considered quite ethnically diverse, with Italians, Greeks, Irish, Germans, Eastern Europeans of all flavors; Hungarian, Slovak, Polish, etc., all of whom came in droves to work in the mills and the mines, and who have put their own ethnic stamp on different neighborhoods.
I have to say I don't know Columbus, but I think if you look at diversity outside of race and color, you will find that Pittsburgh could be considered quite ethnically diverse, with Italians, Greeks, Irish, Germans, Eastern Europeans of all flavors; Hungarian, Slovak, Polish, etc., all of whom came in droves to work in the mills and the mines, and who have put their own ethnic stamp on different neighborhoods.
That doesn't count. You need Asian, AA, Hispanic, and 1 strap Amish to be politically correct.
I agree that ethnic diversity of all sorts contributes to making a place interesting, but to be fair, at this point there isn't much new foreign immigration in those categories and the effects of the former immigration are considerably dampened by now. Not that there are no lingering effects, but it isn't the same as having lots of actual foreign immigrants around.
First, thanks for the thoughtful replies. Everyone exceeded my expectations and I appreciate the "inside views."
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
I think the East End section of Pittsburgh could be a good fit for you. The East End is where a lot of the major hospitals and universities (including Pitt and CMU) are located, plus it is convenient for Downtown, and overall it contains a pretty diverse population, including clusters of arts-oriented people (particularly in some specific areas, which I can elaborate on a bit if you would like).
Pittsburgh feels to me like a significantly larger, older, more architecturally and culturally dense city...for a long time Pittsburgh (in the sense of the urbanized area and not just the city itself) was much larger, and it has a legacy from that time that is still quite apparent.
Yes, I've been "looking around" the East End--thanks to the Internet and electronic technology! It certainly seems a likely place for me--and eventually my partner--to settle. That seemed pretty clear when I initially looked into neighbourhoods in Pittsburgh. Could you say more about specific arts areas, by the way?
I've already found a couple of nice older apartment buildings that seem welcoming and comfortable. And First Unitarian Church is in that area, and walkable, it seems, depending on where I am. That's the congregation I would join and attend when I'm actually in town....
One of the implications of "urbanism" for me is that the people who live in an urban environment actually embrace it, and are not there until they can "get out." For me, that's an important, if perhaps less tangible, aspect of a vibrant urban neighbourhood/environment. I'm not much on suburbanites flocking into the downtown or other urban areas at the week-end to...er...explore a bit--kind of occasional tourists--before they go "home."
I have to say I don't know Columbus, but I think if you look at diversity outside of race and color, you will find that Pittsburgh could be considered quite ethnically diverse, with Italians, Greeks, Irish, Germans, Eastern Europeans of all flavors; Hungarian, Slovak, Polish, etc., all of whom came in droves to work in the mills and the mines, and who have put their own ethnic stamp on different neighborhoods.
For me, diversity is rather a complex thing--comprising all of what you mention above...and more. I grew up in southeastern New England in rather a diverse conglomeration of (predominantly) Euro-American ethnicities. As I am, most of my childhood friends were also second-generation Americans with immigrant grandparents. I also grew up with an Afro-Portuguese sister who was the only black person in our town in well into our high school years!
So being invited into the culture of others and hearing other languages (whether I understand them or not) is a very important part of diversity for me. And, I'd prefer a mingling of ethnicities to "enclaves" where one drops by to visit as a ...er...touring anthropologist, if that makes sense.
As a Unitarian Universalist, I'd also like to be in a place where various religious traditions share space and interact. I know that sounds idealistic, but as a committed religious pluralist, it's important to me not to be segregated, again, into enclaves.
I think diversity is strongest and best when there is no subtext of "we're really all the same, anyway." I learn most and flourish most readily in an environment in which we can all be authentically who we are, with our similarities and differences, and co-exist because of our diversity, not in spite of it!
I think ethnic/cultural diversity is also another code word for 'urban'.
Pittsburgh is the stronger 'urban' of the two.
You're right--usually ethnic and cultural diversity are by-products of an urban environment (although I grew up in a small-ish town--20,000--that was very ethnically diverse, including a plethora of languages spoken, etc.). I guess what I should have said is that I want a multi-cultural environment, as opposed to a mono-cultural one??!
Real urbanism, for me, though, is the embracing of that diversity rather than feeling "stuck" with it...until something "better" comes along. That's the expansive part of diversity I'm looking for!
Certain areas and aspects of Columbus are appealing. Two particular neighborhoods stand out to me there: the Short North and German Village. The former is probably a more useful urban environment, walkable to some businesses, etc. and I would think somewhat multicultural. Not sure about many rental buildings, etc. because....
...Columbus is a spread-out midwestern city. The urban area is small, and the desirable urban area is, from what I know, even smaller. Those areas encompass some of the older parts of the city and as I recall are filled often with single-family houses, although I think there are the occasional small apartment buildings. Columbus definitely has its high points and some amenities, but I would agree with Hopes, more cultural and arts stuff going on here.
Diversity, hm. To me neither place is particularly ethnically, racially or religiously diverse. They have their pockets. Columbus has a really gigantic university; Pittsburgh has several that probably together don't add up to the faculty and student draw of OSU. Columbus may have had a little more actual immigration in recent times. (I'm flying a bit by the seat of my pants here, so correct me if I'm wrong. I've been a regular visitor to and our company still does business in Columbus, but I haven't lived there.) But overall? Not much. But if you park yourself in certain areas, around the university, in the Short North, etc. you will see some diversity in those regards. Same for Pittsburgh, though. The east city neighborhoods including Oakland, Shadyside, Squirrel Hill have some. But the overall regions, I would think would not be particularly diverse. In fact your entire district overall probably isn't that diverse in those ways if you take it as a whole. But some diversity is there if you seek it out.
Columbus has a larger city population, but this is spread out over a larger city area. The metro area of Pittsburgh remains larger than the metro area of Columbus. (I didn't look it up; if that has changed correct me! I'd be very surprised though.) The smaller are within the City of Pittsburgh and also it being older and having the challenging topography with all the hills and rivers means that we have denser urban neighborhoods.
Columbus may be a beautiful city in some ways, but in the center is the ugliest state capitol building. Hehe. Anyway, I would think your interests plus not doing well in a more suburban environment points you more towards Pittsburgh. But, perhaps because I don't live in Columbus I am missing things. (Might be curious enough to go to the Columbus forum and see what they say.) Note, getting to the far tips of WV is somewhat difficult from both places but quite possibly easier from Pittsburgh. Drive from here to Columbus is about 3 hours. To Cleveland is about 2 hours and 15 minutes. Charleston WV is maybe 3.5 hours? Maybe not quite that much. Of course there are smaller and more remote areas of all the states (well, probably more Ohio and WV since I-79 goes right up the western edge of PA) that will be difficult to get to from anywhere.
Please ask if more questions and please let us know what you decide.
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful reply! From what research and virtual exploration I've done on my computer, I agree with about everything you've said, including the ...er...unfortunate...ummm... aesthetics of the Ohio State House. Although, given the history of its construction (or..."de-construction"), I guess it's no real surprise. I was surprised, and dismayed, by all the surface parking in downtown Columbus.... Urban "renewal" at its worst...and most incomplete.
I appreciate all the facts, too, like the driving distances. Having become as much of a westerner as I've become, a three-hour drive seems relatively easy, and necessary if you want to get anywhere...especially considering a three-hour drive in most directions from Denver leaves me still in Colorado! It boggles my mind to remember a drive like that in my potential new district means I might be traversing three states!
As far as the diversity considerations--I'm really more interested in psyching out what folks there view as "diversity" these days. It's become such a buzz-word it can mean almost nothing. Anyway, I appreciate reading your views as well as everyone else's. This kind of conversation really helps (me, at least) to get at some of the deeper ways of understanding a new place. Thanks, again!
And finally...for the time-being, at least...thanks to all who've already responded. You've all been very helpful and have added a dimension of "local genius" to my information and understanding! I appreciate everyone's input.
Could you say more about specific arts areas, by the way?
Sure! Basically the neighborhoods along Penn Avenue from the Strip through Lawrenceville through the Bloomfield/Friendship/Garfield area to East Liberty (and I would toss in Polish Hill too) have been developing into an arts-oriented area. Just to give you a little taste of what is going on, in that area there is something called the 16:62 Design Zone (from 16th Street to 62d Street), which is an attempt to brand that area as an interior design district (defined broadly enough to include a lot of galleries and such):
Then there is the Penn Avenue Arts Initiative, which is converting formerly vacant space along the Penn Avenue commercial district in the Bloomfield/Friendship/Garfield area into residential, studio, and gallery space for artists:
Just in general, this broader area is relatively cheap, hip, urban, diverse, bohemian . . . a place Pittsburgh's artists have found affordable and welcoming.
Another area to consider would be my area, Regent Square plus the immediate surrounding neighborboods. Here is a little article about the scene in Regent Square:
Regent Square is pretty well-established at this point, but there are residential neighborhoods near Regent Square that are more transitional but also more affordable, and attracting some artist-types with an urban pioneer mindset. There is specifically a lot of creative stuff going on in a neighborhood called Hamnett Place, where local residents and a combination of non-profits and public authorities are redeveloping a small historic neighborhood.
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And First Unitarian Church is in that area, and walkable, it seems, depending on where I am. That's the congregation I would join and attend when I'm actually in town....
Just from googling that appears to be in Shadyside. Shadyside is a very nice neighborhood, although a little more upscale and a little less specifically arts-focused than the ones I was describing above. However, I might note the Friendship area is around 1 mile from there, which I consider walkable, and there are some apartment buildings in the Baum/Centre corridor which would be splitting the difference.
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One of the implications of "urbanism" for me is that the people who live in an urban environment actually embrace it, and are not there until they can "get out." For me, that's an important, if perhaps less tangible, aspect of a vibrant urban neighbourhood/environment. I'm not much on suburbanites flocking into the downtown or other urban areas at the week-end to...er...explore a bit--kind of occasional tourists--before they go "home."
I think you'll find that lots of Pittsburgh's urban neighborhoods are full of people embracing urbanism--even if they don't think of it that way. Certainly the neighborhoods I was describing above are full of people who are choosing to live in an urban environment because that is what they want. That said, you will find suburbanites coming into the Strip, East Liberty, Shadyside, and so on for shopping and such on the weekends.
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thanks for the responses
a very thoughtful and extensive response--thanks
Although, given the history of its construction (or..."de-construction"), I guess it's no real surprise. I was surprised, and dismayed, by all the surface parking in downtown Columbus.... Urban "renewal" at its worst...and most incomplete.
