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Old 05-03-2017, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dillionmt View Post

By postulating that the answer is in the middle, does that intimate that there could be an external 'source'? That would imply consciousness doesn't necessarily require a biological entity to exist.
Some very bright people think so.
Most mathematicians are platonists, the believe all ideal forms exist on a different plane or are embedded at the planck scale of the universe. Thats pretty wild stuff for mathematicians but they think so.

What I see is people who think there is nothing going on externally don't fend so well over the long run in life.
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dillionmt View Post
So do you concur that consciousness does exist in lower life forms? When does it stop? When does it start in the neonate?
Single cell paramecium move about, seek mates, find food, escape from a maze , learn to escape faster.
They don't have any neural synapses.
I would say they are aware to the degree that is required for them.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:22 PM
 
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Everything on the nature side has consciousness in it. Consciousness is "what makes everything tick", in very lay terms.
On the nature side, everything is conscious ONLY as its function. On the intelligent side, everything is conscious that it is conscious.
Philosophically speaking, it is a mistake to consider a single cell organism a "single" organism. Just like a human. Paramecium, discussed here, is conglomerate of independent units, organized together by compositor units, permeated by transitor units and governed by a unit with its function as paramecium.

I would say they are aware to the degree that is required for them.

This is correct understanding. read above.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:17 PM
 
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I'll take a stab at this one.
I would say that all biological beings have some 'state of consciousness' but that it appears or manifests itself in different realms and that it progresses over time in healthy organisms. Humans relationships with various species of pets and the species seeming consciousness of their owners feelings moods environmental situation being an example.

I'll use the example of neonates which OP asked about. I would contend they can be influenced by the host carrier with negative or positive influences. I also think there are outside non measurable influences. A sort of non as yet measurable influence, a la the concept of an ether or scalar energy level being all around us.

Somewhere else on C-D (I think the psych forum) there was a thread about at what age do you recall your earliest memory. I would say this is one level of the progression in human consciousness. I would also say each human has different levels of awareness in the earthly realm which can be used to illustrate the consciousness aspect.

For example, if you read about Emotional Intelligence versus knowledge, emotional intelligence is something like the ability to process multiple layers of an interactions with another individual to maximize communications processing capability. It is the ability to read body language and facial expression to in effect "put oneself in another's position" to better process the interactions, a sort of super consciousness. Whereas, someone with less emotional intelligence may still hear what is being said but not 'read' the underlying non-verbal messages being sent. Thus a more linear consciousness versus a robust multi layered consciousness.

I am sure there have been studies done on individuals with various levels of non-fully functional senses, yet they can still process at some baseline level of sensate ability. The instance of heightened senses when one sense is lost is an example that comes to mind. Perhaps I'm conflating terms so I apologize as this is not an area of expertise by any means just mind wandering curious thoughts.

So, if you look at the sensate abilities (as a parallel to consciousness measures) coupled with processing of one's self situation in the environment and add layers of being able to process others (perceived perceptions of what is occurring in the same environment during an interaction) you will be IMO reaching higher levels of consciousness.

I recently read fascinating book, Phenomena, by Annie Jacobson, which is an examination of the US Governments study and application of psychokinesis, remote viewing, ESP, and other what I'd call 'upper levels' of consciousness in that these 'phenomena', not fully understandable nor explainable in scientific terms, but in various testing situations, have been able to be displayed (and used by various agencies within the government - mostly military and intelligence based).

So, one could logically progress to thinking (cogito ergo sum like) that not only do I know I exist (base level of consciousness) but that there are farther levels of existence that enable even more 'higher levels'.

Hope this adds perspective to a difficult topic.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:20 AM
 
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yup,

I approach that from two angles.

One is like yours. Cell, dog, monkey, people. that is a hierarchy. Then I look at the interactions causing that hierarchy. It turns out that cells are like little factories. Little machines (not conscious) making a cell to be classified as life for us.

the second is a bunch of cells form us. That again is a hierarchy of structure. "emergence"

so we have little pieces of non life making a cell look alive. We have cells making us look "more alive". so much so that a cell can't conceive of us.

now the jump.

what does a bunch of life interacting with each other make? i keep to the biosphere because its empirical at this point.

Toss in emergence and we the possibility of something "higher". now for me, I can only say different life form that we are part of. It would explain what the "spiritual people" think they feel. and they do actually, its a real feeling. Its a real connection. Its a real hierarchy of structure and thus the possibility consciousness hierarchy.

It becomes a "more valid" "less valid" claim debate. the science is real.

Pounding an omni dude thing isn't a rational based belief system. A line of logic that deny's the claims made here is less valid then lines of logic that incorporate these claims. Base on science that is. But this is a philosophy section so we can make up what we want.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
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Jung called it the collective consciousness, getting spiritually connected.
Unfortunately the atheists don't wanna comply.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Costa Rica
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Recommend the "Platform Sutra" by Hui-Neng, which gives a elaborate accounts of different levels, or aspects, of consciousness.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:39 PM
 
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I believe that a "higher level of consciousness" is what Canadian psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke was describing in his 1901 classic Cosmic Consciousness: A Study In the Evolution of the Human Mind, available as a PDF at several sites. The best personal description of this phenomenon that I have read is Secret Splendor by Charles Earnest Essert (Philosophical Library 1973), which I must have read 25 times. It is a phenomenon that cuts across all belief systems and is as likely to suddenly burst into your reality from out of nowhere as to arrive after intense meditation or other effort. I don't think there is a "how-to" manual, but Essert's little book comes close. Like Zen enlightenment, which is probably closely related if not identical, it is something that can only be experienced and not really described. Essert, I think, would say that it is indeed a higher level of consciousness, one that transcends the dualistic, this-vs.-that, rational way of thinking that guides us in our everyday lives. I think Essert might also say that it is something that finds you rather than you finding it; you can create the conditions in which it may blossom, but you cannot "achieve" it. As I recall, one of Bucke's key figures (in a book that considers Buddha, Jesus and many others) was American poet Walt Whitman. If you read "Song of Myself," I think that is a pretty good example of what higher consciousness looks and sounds like: SONG OF MYSELF. ( Leaves of Grass (1891-92)) - The Walt Whitman Archive.
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:39 PM
 
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I'll try a parable.
It's summer, so find a nice sunny day with absolutely pure sky. Nothing in it. Simply stand and look into it. It has no definitive boarder, shape, feature, depth any other measure you can apply to it. It can't really even be defined or described. Sky is actually more of a concept that you can see, not a measurable object.
Now add a cloud to this.
Then more clouds.
Then overcast completely covering sky.
Then dark clouds.
Then storm clouds dark and dense.
Sky is till there, right? It is simply covered, veiled, concealed by various degrees of clouding.

Sky is consciousness.
The last sky in the list is human mind. Clouded, covered with all kinds of light concealing obstacles. Light is still present, but barely, dim and vague. That is human level of consciousness.
From that on, clearing the obstacles clears the sky. This is how one approaches the pure consciousness.

But here is the thing. Through all this mental exercise, imagining and considering various "levels of consciousness' - did the sky actually change? No. it's still same sky. So is consciousness. It does not change. It can not be changed.
Hence, there is no point discussing "various levels of consciousness" as consciousness is only ONE level. That being consciousness.
But what can be discussed, is how much or little is an intelligent entity open to the consciousness. So it's no the consciousness that is "leveled" it's the presence or lack of clarity of it in a mind that has levels.
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Costa Rica
177 posts, read 115,986 times
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There is a bright pearl within me,
Buried for a long time under dust.
Today, the dust is gone and the light radiates,
Shining through all the mountains and rivers.

Yueh of Ch'a-ling
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