Looking for a place to start a bakery (Pittsburgh, State College: for sale, houses)

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by trackstar13

I think you may be a little confused regarding my suggestions. I am basing my suggestions off of three key things mentioned by the OP:

1) They want to live on a farm
2) They want to be in at least a somewhat liberal and understanding area
3) They want to open a high quality bakery that appeals to artists, musicians, and also has a pay it forward model/benefits the community

For number one, it is possible to locate the bakery in Pittsburgh or in a small town near Pittsburgh and live on a farm, but unless the OP is willing to commute a pretty good distance, it may be challenging to find affordable land suitable for their farm. For point number two, Pittsburgh would definitely be the most liberal area in western PA, but the competition and cost would be far greater than the areas I mentioned. Also, some of the fringe areas of Pittsburgh and small towns surrounding the city may not be as liberal as Erie or some of the college towns in western PA. For instance, some areas of Butler and Washington counties are actually very conservative and this has been demonstrated by past voter behavior. For the final point, I am not suggesting that college students would be the only target market for the bakery. I am pointing out that college students provide an economic boost to smaller towns that would not ordinarily have the same level of economic activity and they also tend to be more liberal leaning than older residents of a small town.

Edinboro is a great example of this and I frequent Flip's Cafe, which is in downtown Edinboro and very close to the university campus. This business is amazing and I recommend that anybody try it if they are interested in amazing and freshly made locally sourced breakfast items and cupcakes. When school is in session Flip's Cafe is much more crowded and it is a significantly younger, college aged crowd. During the summer Flip's Cafe is still very busy, but it is definitely a different crowd and you get more locals and people from Erie driving down for the awesome food and atmosphere. The college students provide a nice boost for businesses like Flip's Cafe, but they are not the sole source of business. Finally, I agree that college students are definitely becoming more and more aware of costs, especially as tuition costs have been rising, but they still definitely splurge on nights out at the bar or going to the local coffee shop so I believe they would also frequent a bakery. Also, college towns often have liberal learning faculty and staff who could also be target customers, even when school is not in session.

I'm not at all confused by your suggestions. I agree with what you're saying. I live in a Western PA College town and have been to virtually all of the campuses west of the Susquehanna.

The OP has a compromise to make if they want to live on a farm and run a profitable business that is primarily a bakery. The Flip Care in Edinboro advertises itself as a breakfast and lunch cafe first, and a bakery second. While Edinboro is a small community minus the college students, the Flip Cafe has some positives going for it. It is close to Route 6 and most traffic to the University passes close to it. Colleges like California UofPA and IUP would not have those location advantages.

It sounds like the OP would be looking at something closer to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg because of his wife's work. On my earlier suggestion of Aspinwall, it doesn't take long to get to farm country out Route 28, or about 30 minutes to farm country in Upper Burrell Township.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

I'm not at all confused by your suggestions. I agree with what you're saying. I live in a Western PA College town and have been to virtually all of the campuses west of the Susquehanna.

The OP has a compromise to make if they want to live on a farm and run a profitable business that is primarily a bakery. The Flip Care in Edinboro advertises itself as a breakfast and lunch cafe first, and a bakery second. While Edinboro is a small community minus the college students, the Flip Cafe has some positives going for it. It is close to Route 6 and most traffic to the University passes close to it. Colleges like California UofPA and IUP would not have those location advantages.

It sounds like the OP would be looking at something closer to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg because of his wife's work. On my earlier suggestion of Aspinwall, it doesn't take long to get to farm country out Route 28, or about 30 minutes to farm country in Upper Burrell Township.

Yes after the OP's most recent post I think they would be better off closer to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg. With that being said competition will be very fierce in or around Pittsburgh and the farm may be a challenge. I also agree that Flip Cafe is more of a breakfast and lunch place first and bakery second. They only do a limited number of bakery items, but they are all pretty good. I believe the two keys to Flip Cafe's success have been the amazing food and the serious lack of competition. In the Erie/Edinboro area there is an extreme lack of locally sourced, fresh breakfast places and artisan bakeries. Even Meadville has Creative Crust, which is also pretty good I might add. It is surprising to me that I still have been unable to find one artisan bakery in the Erie area. I am pretty well versed on the Pittsburgh area as I grew up there and still have family there and visit quite often, but admittedly I am not that familiar with Aspinwall. With that being said, a quick internet search reveals that there is at least one bakery in Aspinwall directly and several in the immediate surrounding areas. It appears that the bakery in Aspinwall, which is linked below, is mainly for cakes and sweets, but it would still be competition either way.

Bella Christies and Lil Z's Sweet Boutique

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by Saxmansnyder

trackstar13,

Thank you. Your advice is good. I'm not familiar with Aspenwall, though. I've not been to the Pittsburgh area in years, to be honest. The reason for looking in the area is that my wife has the ability to obtain a job there once her tour of duty is completed on our overseas assignment. She also has similar opportunities in Harrisburg and Philadelphia, but as I grew up in OH, the Pittsburgh area is closer to family for us.

I have some connections throughout PA with a writer's organization of which I am a member that I am also in touch with for advice.

I agree that an establishment cannot rely solely on students for success. Hence, why the intent of my bakery would be to also be a gathering place for the community in some fashion. I believe strongly in giving back to where I live rather than just being there to make a profit.

The political aspect of my original post was primarily due to a previous assignment we were in where it was too far to the conservative to the point where my daughters were treated poorly due to their not being of the same race as my wife and I as well as our desire to raise them to be tolerant and accepting of all people based on who the people are rather than their race, religion, or other labels society places on people.

No worries about the advice and this information is helpful for me to better understand what you are looking for after your initial post. While Pittsburgh itself is definitely liberal leaning, definitely make sure you further investigate the politics of the small towns surrounding Pittsburgh before establishing your business/farm. I have been pretty surprised just how conservative some of the surrounding areas near Pittsburgh have been in recent years. Let me know if you have any questions about towns near Pittsburgh and I wish the best with your bakery and move to PA.

[Anonymous Lurker]

Originally Posted by Saxmansnyder

Lurker,

First of all, it was alpacas and, while my oldest plays ukulele, I do not.

Next, don't insult me. There was no reason for that except possibly for you to feel better about yourself.

"Have you even conducted any market research, costs of permits, regulations, laws, or requirements needed to get the doors open? Have you complied with any special food or sanitary courses to get a food license? Have you priced insurance, bonding, or workers comp? What about payroll services and book keeping, and have an IRS filing number? Do you know who the competition in the area is? Do you already have your suppliers / providers lined up and know what you're looking at in terms of food cost? "

As to the above quote, I am conducting that research outside of this forum. As I have until January 2018 when my wife's tour of duty is complete to research and go through all the business side of this venture, I am quite capable of handling that aspect. However, since we are out of the US at the moment, I am attempting to research areas from more of the human side rather than the business side using this forum.

I assure you, this is a very real business idea/venture. I am well aware that many food service businesses fail within a year or two of starting. If you are so very astute in this area, then offer constructive advice rather than commenting in a way that is insulting.

Where we live is very important to me as we've experienced a great deal on the negative side of life. As to the hobby farm when it comes to my private life, that is an important aspect of where we move as well as my youngest has a disability and she benefits from being around animals such as alpacas which are very gentle and therapeutic. That aspect of my life will not be a money maker for me, except the occasional selling of fibre from when they are sheared each year.

As these animals are extremely low maintenance, it makes it very easy to have a hobby farm and still be able to work a regular job off the farm, which is where I plan to open the bakery and not a "fantasy as if your idea is that once you're on the farm with your exotic animals you'll just open up a local bakery and presto you're (excuse the pun) rolling in the dough".

Again, offer constructive assistance rather than insults that likely do nothing but possibly giving a boost to your ego.

It's not about my ego but rather just how your initial post came across to me as if it were almost fantasy land. Had you at least provided more information to the reasons why you were locating to a rural area or some of the other important information you left out then maybe your original post wouldn't have seemed so fruity to me.

Ok so special needs child and you want to live in a rural area on a micro farm which is your first priority, great got that now... and I understand it perfectly. (Opposed to first having the impression you were just going to drive out somewhere and live on some type of shared animal refuge and try to start a side business because it seemed "right" or "cool"

Now that we've established the real reason and the priority for the farm living then my suggestions will be much more serious, helpful and maybe lead you to a new thought process. Also let me share with you I have 2 different close friends who own rural bakery's as well as I personally have firsthand farm experience so I think I'll be speaking from experience.

In regards to the farm you want and while Alpacas are considered low maintenance they are still rather large animals. I would re-consider the types of animals you have because a small child of any age simple loves animals of all kinds and therefore other animals might be more productive for you both financially and in terms of care.

Before I get further into the animals let me touch on the bakery for a moment. One of my friends who owns a rural bakery found a niche where he produces a certain type of bread thats used for lunch sandwiches. Its like a 6" hoagie loaf and he sells these to various small stores. Because they are unique and baked fresh daily he is able to sell them in bulk to various stores and has a person who delivers them on a small route. He has little to no competition because his breads do not have preservatives and taste very fresh. He will exchange the 2 day old bread that doesn't sell at no cost and after fine tuning the sales he knows how much each client basically sells so he doesn't over stock them.

The store owners do not lose out because he exchanges any product that doesn't sell but in turn he also doesn't lose out that much because all the old bread that doesn't sell he uses for feed on his small farm where he keeps pigs. He basically recycles his old bread into feed thus saving a great deal of money on pig feed while losing less money in his bakery due to the controls he's put in place and the fact that he can use his unsold product in a way where he can recover some of those lost costs.

Therefore my suggestion is you better research building a pig pen and putting it to use if you have a bakery. When your pigs are fattened up and you sell them you'll at least get some return on your lost bakery goods.

The one friend I know does only a certain type of bread in his bakery (as mentioned) while the other guy does an assortment of bakery goods including sweet breads with sugar and pastries. His costs are much greater due to the amount of sugar, chocolate, and fillings he uses. He too has set up a system where he has a small delivery to a few stores and gas stations as well as his own bakery location where he sells goods out of. He seems to struggle with his sales more than the other guy but they are two different types of bakeries.

In regard to the farm, Id also look into sheep or goats as they are smaller animals and will pasture on smaller amount of land, keep it cut short in the green season, and wont require a lot of work either. You can also use the sheep for meat or goats for milk and cheese thus making the animals much more productive if you have someone there who can oversee these additional revenue sources.

You child will still love sheep or goats and they wont post as many issues with their size as does a large animal. Also if your doing baked good that don't sell you can find a way to use those and feed them to goats or sheep who will eat the left overs if done properly. This will not only help you spend less but it will save you a great deal of money.

Unfortunately you're going to discover the the more rural area you live in the more conservative and less liberal it is. As for a mixed racial family well regardless of where you live for those who don't accept you, well thats their problem and not yours. There are bigots all over and nothing will change who they are until they change themselves. I wouldn't even concern yourself with that issue or the "Liberal / Conservative" and just be yourself. People will like your family if you're "good people" and again if they don't nobody said life in this crazy world would ever make any sense anyway (and part of the reason you're relocating to a more rural area)

So my suggestion is if your priority is the micro farm then locate that first with what your requirements are and then go from there. The bakery will follow by then knowing the area you're located in and the needs of the people there.

[Longa]

This is interesting because my family is mixed race living in rural western PA and my experience has been that if you are not Caucasian christian, it is silently uncomfortable at best. Maybe I just picked the wrong neighborhood but this is the most isolating strange place I have ever lived. We are normal educated people and do not keep a junky property or anything like that. My child is very social but has not really made any friends that are close enough to come over and hang out. There are other kids around neighborhood but its like a ghost town 90 % of the time. When we first moved in, some neighbors did stop to say hello but I think they were just curious, got the information they wanted then went on about their lives. That text book fake invitation that never happens......"oh we have to have you guys over for a drink sometime........" LOL OK. I have to be here for work but its depressing, I wont recommend it. I was told that change is not generally welcomed; it took me a minute to realize my mere presence is the "change".

[bun1919]

I think a business like that would do well in Lewisburg. There is a cute downtown with restaurants with tables
outside to sit at. The only thing that passes as a bakery there these days is the Barnes and Noble bookstore that sells some pastries. Otherwise you have to go to mostly Starbucks, Giant, Panera for baked goods.

For Central PA there is a somewhat liberal mindset here. Dont get me wrong its not a completely liberal but having the
college here (Bucknell) helps and the town is always bustling from business from the college.Restaurants and eateries seem to be full a lot of the time.

I honestly dont think youll have tons of problems with racial problems here in Lewisburg. My kids have gone through the school system and there is tolerance. Not tons of diversity but it has grown and there have not been any problems that they can see with acceptance. Not saying its perfect but some of the other towns in this area may be more difficult to fit in. In this area Lewisburg would be a good choice.

[mrsdpc2006]

In regard to western PA, Harmony and Zelienople tend to have a hippie/hemp friendly vibe to them as well. I don't think Lawrence or Mercer counties would work. There tends to be more of a "meat and potatoes" than "organic and gluten free".

[PAhippo]

Rather than having a store type bakery, you might consider selling to restaurants. And rather than pigs, donate the excess to food pantries. They will take out-dated bread if it's not way over the expiration date.


I'd stay with the alpaca idea. They are big but they're one of the friendliest safest farm animals. And if you find an area with lots of weavers, (Tioga county, PA) getting rid of the fleece will be no problem!

[flyonpa]

Originally Posted by mrsdpc2006

In regard to western PA, Harmony and Zelienople tend to have a hippie/hemp friendly vibe to them as well. I don't think Lawrence or Mercer counties would work. There tends to be more of a "meat and potatoes" than "organic and gluten free".

The OP Is gone. Has not been on City Data in almost a year.

[PAhippo]

yea, just noticed that.