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The majority who say to not judge (and punish) what goes on at Dad's are right on. But you also must take an extra effort to not project your displeasure with him which is very evident in your third paragraph. They certainly are very aware of this and whether you realize it or not are already using this to their benefit. If they weren't, we wouldn't be here.
They aren't animals. They aren't going to forget what they did in 5 minutes like a dog that just peed on the carpet.
Punishment can be handed out at any time. If Dad won't, you should.
My philosophy as well so what it did not happen on her watch they are supposed to be co -parenting and this is a part of co - parenting .. Yes punishment can be handed out at any time and they do know what they did .
I think it's ludicrous to even discuss punishment at this point. Hopefully the girls have moved on. If it bothered Dad, he should have handled it. Mom makes the rules in her house, not his. But realistically, both girls got as good as they gave, and I would consider the matter over.
I'm clearly seeing something no one else here is seeing. I'm seeing the OP describe a history of problems with her children. "I've called her out on that many times" for being a bully, and for throwing things violently out of anger. I'm seeing the OP say she's a hands-on mom in one paragraph, and 2 paragraphs down in the same post says she prefers to leave all the problems between the girls, for them to solve without her interference (which would indicate a hands-off approach to that problem).
I'm seeing emotional issues that go WAY beyond parenting and delves deep into interpersonal relationship problems - maybe mom spends so much time analyzing "challenges" and patting herself on the back for being a modern, non-confrontational, "use your words" super-parent, that her kids know they can get away with their behavior because no one is doing a thing to stop them.
I think the problem is with the parents. The kids are doing what teenage girls in difficult situations will do, when they lack a responsible parent to lay down the law and be a parent, rather than an armchair analyst, friend, or "team-leader." Doing all that has obviously not worked, because if it was working, she wouldn't have these issues (or they would be less significant, or they would be different issues entirely).
Rather than try and read all the latest books, and use all the trendiest phrases, why not just put your hand on your child's shoulder, press gently but firmly til she sits down, and tell her - square in the face, at close quarters, in a "defy me and die" soft, calm, ice-cold tone, "You will do as I say. There is no "or else.""
I want to comment on your entire post but I will start with your ground rules:
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Originally Posted by Stagemomma
So, this is where we are. I don't want any great thoughts on how I SHOULD have been disciplining all along. Let's start with this incident right here: If this were your kids, would you deal out 'punishment' for the bathroom scuffle, and if so, what would it be?
If I were the parents of kids who had reached this level of violence, I would first attempt to understand what exactly has led up to the “scuffle†and then I’d start trying to understand where and how I WENT WRONG before I invented some meaningful punishment. My first idea of punishment would is to consider how it might HELP my kids become friends and not impose some kind of PAIN upon them (just to satisfy my need for revenge), which would do absolutely nothing to improve their relationship or behavior in both my opinion and experience. If these were my kids, based on my own dismal upbringing, I’d do whatever it takes, including getting into therapy for us parents, to HELP our kids somehow become friends instead of the bitter enemies that our horribly inadequate parenting has produced do far.
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I have two beautiful teenage daughters. The oldest is a typical type A oldest child, smart, a leader, and wants everything done her way. The youngest is quieter, dreamy, struggles to maintain her baby status, is smart but fairly lazy and content to just float through life. Not much in the way of goals or ambitions.
LOL, this is nearly a perfect picture of my older brother and me!
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Both girls have been to counseling, that's an ongoing challenge in itself.
Has their counselor ever suggested that many of their issues are related to faulty parenting? What are the “challenges†for them or you?
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There is a fair amount of sibling rivalry which we have tried to alleviate by dividing and conquering. We make sure each girl gets alone time with each parent and grandparent. Sometimes they are great together, sometimes they fight.
That is pretty much the way we were except that our fights reached epic proportions!
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I think she can be a bully, and I've called her on it many times. Youngest can be a brat, and I've called her on it many times. Naturally, as a single working mom I am not usually home when they are at their worst. They fight less at Dad's house but Youngest is still struggling with stepfamily stuff and has lots of meltdowns there about other things.
My older brother definitely became a bully at home and at school. We were both “brats†which is all about very inadequate, faulty parenting, IMO. We had some of our worst fistfights when mom and dad were away and our last, horrendous fist fight was when I threw a punch over my shoulder and broke off part of my brother’s front tooth while he savagely pummeled me from behind!
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Last weekend, after a long day of step family entertainment at an amusement park, youngest left the bathroom door open a crack while using the toilet. Oldest entered to brush her teeth. Youngest asked for privacy, oldest refused to leave, They got into a fight, youngest smeared toothpaste in oldests hair, oldest pushed or hit her, youngest lashed back and scratched her sisters face.
That sure seems like the level of anger, hatred and VIOLENCE that us boys got into which culminated in me breaking my brother’s front tooth. We stopped being physically violent our of fear of our very violent and abusive dad but the “attitude†and mental abuse continued on.
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I declined to punish either girl, since A) it didn't happen on my watch and I think punishment should be immediate or not at all and B) isn't the fight and the bad feelings enough? but we will have new ground rules for sharing the bathroom or not.
I was absoutley terrified of what dad would do to both of us (he was a BEATER!) so we created a stupid lie to explain my older brother’s broken tooth and our parents “punished†us by leaving my brother’s tooth UNREPAIRED for many years after which just killed me whenever I had to look at it! I believe that they did not go for our lie or maybe our little sister ratted on us. We were never directly punished and the whole thing was quickly forgotten!
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Now I'm in charge, and Oldest is furious with me for 'taking Youngest's side as usual' and failing to implement effective consequences. I have asked her before and asked her this time what she thinks would be appropriate. She has no ideas (That is my job, she says). I don't want this to be what she takes away from her first 18 years on the planet....that Mom always takes Youngest's side. I DO make accommodations for youngest's fragile emotional state. And I do want both of them to learn better impulse control.
As far as I am currently concerned, our parents could have turned our hateful relationship around at any time or even after our last viscous fight IF ONLY they had sat us down and intelligently discussed why we hated each other so much and where and how it had all started back when we were fighting toddlers but such a meaningful discussion would NEVER have happened because neither of them would have ever admitted that our hatred started the very day I was born and wrecked my older brother’s life BECAUSE HIS PARENTS FAILED to help him accept me then 4 years after I was born, our little sister came along and the whole sibling hatred thing started again due to the very same parental FAILURE to help us boys lovingly accept her!
At the age when I broke my brother’s tooth (about 14) I would not have known how to respond to the question: “what she thinks would be appropriate (punishment)?†but now, at 76, I would tell my parents: “PLEASE get both of you into marriage counseling and/or psychotherapy for your horrible issues which have directly CAUSED our wild fight!†“If only both of you were mentally/emotionally OK, none of this would have ever happened and us 3 kids would be best friends right now instead of bitter, angry, hateful and VIOLENT enemies thanks to both of YOU!â€
LOL, but of course, our parents like most parents, would have laughed us off or kicked out butts for daring to suggest that they, not us, were the problem!
Initiating the "everyone gets punished" as a new standard policy also eliminates your continually trying to figure out who is the most wrong every time something happens.
LOL, that was our dad's IDIOTIC solution to everything! What a MORON! His stupidity caused more harm than good but he didn't care so long as he got his REVENGE and let off some "steam" while stupidly believing he has everything under control! WHAT A PATHETIC IDIOT!
jim
I would, however, sit them both down and have a frank discussion step by step starting with how it ended and work backwards so they can follow along the trail from end to beginning. Cause and effect.
LOL, that would have taken all of them back to the very day the youngest was born and PISSED OFF the oldest because the parents FAILED to help her happily and gladly accept the newbie from day one. But if not that moment, it would take all of them back to the moment when the kids first started fighting and their parents FAILED to intervene and begin promoting love and basic respect in the family!
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Then you all will find that IF the younger had simply shut the door all the way (and perhaps locked it) the older could not have entered, therefore preventing the entire incident. So, you take the younger one to the bathroom door (doesn't matter that it's not the same one) and have her practice going in and closing it fully and locking it. Do this over and over and over. If the older had stopped from entering after finding her sister using the restroom, that would have prevented it. Now you have younger in the bathroom and the older has to practice walking in and finding it occupied and walking back out. Do this over and over and over. You can go further by having the younger ask for privacy and the older must do as asked. The older can take her toothbrush and toothpaste to another sink to brush her teeth. And so on.
And then, get the negligent parents to begin practicing over and over promoting the love and respect that both of them FAILED to do at the beginning of the kid's lives when the kids were still TEACHABLE.
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The idea is to show them how ridiculous their behavior was, what it caused and how easily it could have been avoided. Then there's the part about how they now had to spend an hour(or more) learning basic respect for each other that they should have shown to each other that night.
Or learning the basic respect for each other that their parents FAILED to teach them from the very day the youngest kid was born!
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And, if you simply feel there is no other choice but to get physical, then come to me and I'll provide you with boxing gloves and an open space and you can go at it.
LOL, that was our dad's very stupid solution for us at an earlier age but we graduated from silly little boxing gloves to bare knuckle FIST FIGHTS later on! Our ignorant dad couldn't see that giving us boxing gloves would NEVER undo the mental damages that both of our pathetic parents had done to us!
jim
My oldest is only 8, so I'm not really in that whole teen phase yet. But recently when she did something that was relationship-damaging, her punishment was to write a note of apology in the format of "I'm sorry for ____. It was wrong because ____. In the future I will ____." That's probably a bit young for your situation though.
IMO, that would be an excellent process for the inadequate parents of fighting kids.
Let me try it out:
"I'm sorry for: allowing you kids to become such bitter rivals.
It was wrong because: I should have learned more about good parenting instead of dong the stupid things my parents did.
In the future I will: take parenting classes, read books, find a counselor or do whatever it takes to ensure that you kids will NOT grow us as unhappy and messed up as us parents did."
Pretty coooool! I like your apologetic format!
jim
Please Read:
Siblings without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
Implement the strategies they give you. Have a family meeting to explain how things will be handled from now on.
I would greatly love for you to offer some items or quotes from that book for our education in here.
Best wishes,
jim
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