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Didn't read the whole thread but I think the OP is onto something when she says in America there's more of a pressure to do things "on your own" and NOT hire help. I think "help" may have a bit of an old-world, European "servant" connotation and a vaguely "anti-middle class", "anti-American" kind of fragrance.
The rich, of course, will hire all the help they need but then again, the rich are the same all over the world.
With the middle classes (even upper-middle)... it's a bit more complicated. For one thing, the middle class is increasingly less "middle". Chances are you can't part all that easily with quite a lot of money for tasks that at least APPEAR you could do on your own with just the right level of time management and organizational skills (which, in reality, rarely works).
Most people can't afford it anyway; but even those who could afford it in theory, probably feel that they could put that money to better use by paying off debts, mortgage, or just plain maximizing retirement, savings and overall family security. Affording oneself the "laid back" lifestyle is the ultimate luxury, quite foreign to most Americans, I would argue.
In theory, we could afford to hire help momentarily - and Lord knows with 2 full-time careers, 2 kids in school, and an inability to eat frozen dinners (so I also cook from scratch almost every day) - we could use every bit of it.
But we don't because there's no such thing as job security anymore, savings and investments are not where we think they should be, we cannot stand living on debt - and if we spent so much money on help, we wouldn't be able to save, invest and be debt-free as we are now.
Yet, when both parents have careers, no help is available, and you are also not the kind of person that can relax in a chaotic, disorderly, and less-than-clean house - it can get very, very frustrating.
For us, the general lack of security and social safety net specific to the US made us embrace the "no help" approach - simply because it costs way too much money and eats away at savings and investments - the only thing that can cover your butt when the corporation decides to let you go.
(And it will, sooner or later).
That being said, I think lots of "hired help" is the most wonderful thing anyone can have, right after "health"; better than any imaginable material luxury.
My DH and I often talk about how we would hire so much help if we won the lottery that the house would swarm with people constantly making sure we wouldn't have to move one single darn finger - EVER . That would include taking our coats off and hanging them somewhere.
After years of working ourselves to death, even THAT would feel too much to do.
One thing I learned in life is that the ability to be a MASSIVE, SHAMELESS LAZY BASTARD and enjoying every moment of it - despite all social stigma associated with "laziness" - must be the sweetest feeling on Earth. It probably even beats the "revenge" feeling .
If I could wish one single thing for my children (apart from health) this would be "it".
Too bad they have zero chances of experiencing it in this life.
I think we do hire help in the U.S., but that help doesn't typically arrive hauling a cleaning bucket. Our help comes in the form of the restaurant worker down the street. I think we can all agree that preparing food and cleaning up after meals take up a lot of the time women (and many men) expend on household chores, so eating out can lighten the load considerably, and Americans take full advantage of it.
Last edited by randomparent; 07-25-2014 at 05:09 PM..
I think we do hire help in the U.S., but that help doesn't typically arrive hauling a cleaning bucket. Our help comes in the form of the restaurant worker down the street. I think we can all agree that preparing food and cleaning up after meals take up a lot of the time women (and many men) expend on household chores, so eating out can lighten the load considerably, and Americans take full advantage of it.
That's also a good point. Much more common than in Europe.
Trouble is...eating out can get quite expensive as well as unhealthy.
Especially with kids, where it seems that American parents are tempted to go the "fast food" way or some cheap neighborhood restaurant, as "nicer" can get very expensive for a family of 4+.
The way I would do it if I could...I would hire a cook rather than constantly eat out.
Basic food, fresh, cooked from scratch every other day or so with some leftovers in between.
That would be more of the European way... but even there, few people would afford such help.
But I found that in the US services, in general, tend to be terribly expensive.
Maybe because Americans are at DIY-ers at heart and when a service IS offered, the price asked will be pretty high? ...
I am not sure. I found this to be so for pretty much all services ranging from cleaning, hair styling, manicure-pedicure, cooking decent foods (restaurants), all the way to child-care and medical services - which are the ultimate financial killer in this country.
I'm pregnant and due in a couple months and am planning to hire help to do all the drudergy that I know will stress me out.(laundry, cooking, cleaning,watch baby while I shower or leave the house for short periods like the gym or the occasional massage if I need a pick me up). I'm not ashamed at all of that.
Then, after a little debate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitchisback
Doesn't hiring someone to do the day to day drudgery lead to happier parents with more time to spend with your kids?
So suddenly those gym visits and massages you weren't ashamed of turned into more time with the kids... things that make you go "hmm..."
Look, parent of twins here. No nanny. Just us. We can handle our s**t without a nanny or housekeeper. We're not mentally ill because of it (as you implied, to justify your own wish for some hired help to give you time away from the kids.) We're also not limited in the time we spend with the kids because of the drudgery work (as you later implied when massages and gyms seemed too self-centered.) I do housework with the kid strapped to my front or back. It's "fun" for both of us.
Do what you want. Spend some time away from the kid if you need to. But don't look to me for validation. I, personally, wouldn't hire anyone outside the family to watch after my kids until they are of age (4+ years old). I would take help from relatives, if they were around, to be able to get some house maintenence done, or go out with the spouse for a night. But that's me.
You are you. Do what you need to do, and stop looking to others to justify a little bit of selfishness. You're allowed it. But don't try to dump on us that forego it, for whatever reasons.
I'll give a bit of background on myself. I live in the Caribbean...here it is really really normal for people (middle class and up)to hire outside help to cook, clean or help take care of kids. Like people will often just assume you have a housekeeper.Granted it is cheaper than in the US but it comes down to enhancing one's quality of life and maintaining one's overall sanity rather than price considerations( it is just factored in to the budget like groceries,car payments). Heck I have a housekeeper right now and it's just my husband and me..I just make her come twice a week.....her duties and frequency will be expanded when the baby gets here.
I grew up with a live-in maid from birth and the only negative I would say is that I tend to not be very good at and generally hate household chores since I am not used to doing them. I don't want my child growing up like that though...he will be making up his own bed, washing dishes on occasion and cleaning up any excessive careless messes that he makes.
Doesn't hiring someone to do the day to day drudgery lead to happier parents with more time to spend with your kids?
There is a real difference between being capable of managing the household and choosing not to and being incapable and having to have extra help. I grew up with nannies and a housekeeper to, I deliberately chose not to have those for my kids because there is a real useful skill set in learning the responsibility and time management skills of taking care of a home. Many children first learn time management via chores, and I mean real chores.
I think many parents regardless of whether they have hired help or do everything themselves are doing their children a disservice by not using the home as a teaching tool staring early on.
certain cultures in the USA do have an unspoken taboo against hiring help
midwestern people with a german, scandinavian background certainly do
I once knew a German woman who lived in the USA; whenever her mother visited from Germany she'd ask her why she didn't have a maid!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog_Mom
I do think people are lazy if they don't work, have only one or two kids, and still hire someone to clean their house. If you plan the housework the right way, you can get it all done in a couple hours a day, or less.
I think this is what the article means about Taboo. Why would one be lazy? Why can't it be just a choice? American's have created a wealth gap that dictates who should have certain "services", it's nonsense. Household help in many other countries is not only normal, it's not always dictated by wealth and is much more affordable as a result. There is no status requirement to having a maid, cook, or Nanny in many parts of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitchisback
I'll give a bit of background on myself. I live in the Caribbean...here it is really really normal for people (middle class and up)to hire outside help to cook, clean or help take care of kids. Like people will often just assume you have a housekeeper.Granted it is cheaper than in the US but it comes down to enhancing one's quality of life and maintaining one's overall sanity rather than price considerations( it is just factored in to the budget like groceries,car payments). Heck I have a housekeeper right now and it's just my husband and me..I just make her come twice a week.....her duties and frequency will be expanded when the baby gets here.
I grew up with a live-in maid from birth and the only negative I would say is that I tend to not be very good at and generally hate household chores since I am not used to doing them. I don't want my child growing up like that though...he will be making up his own bed, washing dishes on occasion and cleaning up any excessive careless messes that he makes.
Doesn't hiring someone to do the day to day drudgery lead to happier parents with more time to spend with your kids?
Yes it does, IMHO. But our culture assigns a social status to such in-home services, thus, even when people can afford them, they often don't even think of hiring such help if they view their household as "middle-class" or lower.
I'm an older mom and quite frankly, I feel no guilt at all about hiring "help." When my husband and I were childless and both working, we would spend a few hours of our precious weekends cleaning, mowing grass, doing errands, doing car maintenance, etc. After a bit, I felt like our free time was spent doing crappy things. As we rose in our careers (and saved more money), I felt less and less guilty about paying for some quality of life things. About 15 years ago, we hired our first house cleaner who came and cleaned once a week. It was great since I traveled extensively, hubby worked long hours including some weekends. The last thing we wanted to do was clean our house during our spare time.
Fast forward to now with kids.....I have a house cleaning service that comes every two weeks to clean our big house, we hire a lawn service. And horrors upon horrors, yesterday we hired a pool cleaning service for the first time in 10 years to clean our pool weekly. We just moved to a new area of the country with a salt water pool so I'm slightly intimidated by this new, fancy pool even though we were pros with our old pool. I may take this on again in a few months but watching them service and maintain the pool for a bit will educate me and get me more comfortable with our pool.
Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. I really don't care what others think. Sometimes I cringe at the money we spend which in the greater scheme of things is not that much but we can afford it since we scrimped and saved for most of our lives and live very comfortably. At the heart of me is a very frugal woman. But with a bad back, several serious illnesses (the big C twice), my attitude is screw it! If you can afford it, why not? Even being a SAHM, it gives me more time to enjoy things in life and my idea of fun isn't scrubbing toilets.
I'm even thinking about buying me a luxury car after driving my trusty car for 10 years. Life is short. Then again, my frugal side of me says....drive my 10 year old car a few more years!!!
One thing to add.....the kids do chores. Keep rooms cleaned, take out trash, help with house projects, etc. We all worked very hard this summer on our move...packing, assembly projects, etc. They understand that we can afford these luxuries but it wasn't always like this. In our younger days, hubby and I worked our butts off....at work and at home.
I'm an older mom and quite frankly, I feel no guilt at all about hiring "help." When my husband and I were childless and both working, we would spend a few hours of our precious weekends cleaning, mowing grass, doing errands, doing car maintenance, etc. After a bit, I felt like our free time was spent doing crappy things. As we rose in our careers (and saved more money), I felt less and less guilty about paying for some quality of life things. About 15 years ago, we hired our first house cleaner who came and cleaned once a week. It was great since I traveled extensively, hubby worked long hours including some weekends. The last thing we wanted to do was clean our house during our spare time.
Fast forward to now with kids.....I have a house cleaning service that comes every two weeks to clean our big house, we hire a lawn service. And horrors upon horrors, yesterday we hired a pool cleaning service for the first time in 10 years to clean our pool weekly. We just moved to a new area of the country with a salt water pool so I'm slightly intimidated by this new, fancy pool even though we were pros with our old pool. I may take this on again in a few months but watching them service and maintain the pool for a bit will educate me and get me more comfortable with our pool.
Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. I really don't care what others think. Sometimes I cringe at the money we spend which in the greater scheme of things is not that much but we can afford it since we scrimped and saved for most of our lives and live very comfortably. At the heart of me is a very frugal woman. But with a bad back, several serious illnesses (the big C twice), my attitude is screw it! If you can afford it, why not? Even being a SAHM, it gives me more time to enjoy things in life and my idea of fun isn't scrubbing toilets.
I'm even thinking about buying me a luxury car after driving my trusty car for 10 years. Life is short. Then again, my frugal side of me says....drive my 10 year old car a few more years!!!
One thing to add.....the kids do chores. Keep rooms cleaned, take out trash, help with house projects, etc. We all worked very hard this summer on our move...packing, assembly projects, etc. They understand that we can afford these luxuries but it wasn't always like this. In our younger days, hubby and I worked our butts off....at work and at home.
I totally agree with you. It sounds like your kids are being raised similar to the way I was raised. My mother was a public high school teacher and felt my sister and I were too young to learn how to help clean the house properly( I was 7 at the time, and my sister was 9). And like your kids, we still had some chores.
So my father decided to hire a housekeeper to come in twice a week to help my mother keep the house clean and tidy to her standard's. My father came from a poor family, and my mother was one of 3 girls so none of them enjoyed yard work, hence they have always had a yardman come in once a week.
My brother has a huge house in North Carolina and he has a team of housekeepers who come in once a week to clean his house. I remember one time when my parents and I were visiting him there, he drove us around and showed us a neighborhood where all the homes were as large as his or even larger and told us that the people who lived there usually had housekeepers to clean their homes. Otherwise, they'll spend all their weekends or off times cleaning, and it still wouldn't be really clean. They also have a yardman since his yard is large.
I grew up with hired help and I see nothing wrong in it at all.
Last edited by Honolulu21; 07-27-2014 at 06:18 PM..
I'm an older mom and quite frankly, I feel no guilt at all about hiring "help." When my husband and I were childless and both working, we would spend a few hours of our precious weekends cleaning, mowing grass, doing errands, doing car maintenance, etc. After a bit, I felt like our free time was spent doing crappy things. As we rose in our careers (and saved more money), I felt less and less guilty about paying for some quality of life things. About 15 years ago, we hired our first house cleaner who came and cleaned once a week. It was great since I traveled extensively, hubby worked long hours including some weekends. The last thing we wanted to do was clean our house during our spare time.
Fast forward to now with kids.....I have a house cleaning service that comes every two weeks to clean our big house, we hire a lawn service. And horrors upon horrors, yesterday we hired a pool cleaning service for the first time in 10 years to clean our pool weekly. We just moved to a new area of the country with a salt water pool so I'm slightly intimidated by this new, fancy pool even though we were pros with our old pool. I may take this on again in a few months but watching them service and maintain the pool for a bit will educate me and get me more comfortable with our pool.
Do I feel guilty? Not a bit. I really don't care what others think. Sometimes I cringe at the money we spend which in the greater scheme of things is not that much but we can afford it since we scrimped and saved for most of our lives and live very comfortably. At the heart of me is a very frugal woman. But with a bad back, several serious illnesses (the big C twice), my attitude is screw it! If you can afford it, why not? Even being a SAHM, it gives me more time to enjoy things in life and my idea of fun isn't scrubbing toilets.
I'm even thinking about buying me a luxury car after driving my trusty car for 10 years. Life is short. Then again, my frugal side of me says....drive my 10 year old car a few more years!!!
One thing to add.....the kids do chores. Keep rooms cleaned, take out trash, help with house projects, etc. We all worked very hard this summer on our move...packing, assembly projects, etc. They understand that we can afford these luxuries but it wasn't always like this. In our younger days, hubby and I worked our butts off....at work and at home.
We finally hired a housekeeper. Today was her first day. I'm only having her do 75% of the house. It makes it more affordable and my husband doesn't want anyone in his den anyway. It was great coming home today to a pretty clean home. This woman (women today) is awesome. She did such a great job and it's a load off. So, when my daughter goes to bed tonight instead of doing the normal cleaning I can spend some time on work to catch up there.
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I totally agree with you....
