Kids and Manners? (Divorced friend and his 3yo girl staying at my house…) (child, 3 years old)
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For what my opinion is worth, I think you are in dangerous territory. As a friend of the parent, I don't think it is your role whatsoever to be telling your friend how to parent, much less trying to parent his child. Offering a place to live for a while is lovely and generous, but trying to co-parent is probably going to cause problems...
It would be nice if I could just leave the parenting to my friend! But life is not so simple...
For one I have two dogs. And I *must* be able to tell kids to leave the dogs alone and have them follow my rules. If a dog is growling because a kid is pestering it too much, that is a warning.
And also I sometimes do construction work around my house and use power tools which can be very dangerous. I *must* be able to tell them to stay away or stay in a certain area and have them do so.
So pretty much this all boils down to getting kids to do as they are told while at my house, very important at times for their safety.
I do that with adults as well. I will not let anyone (adults only) use my power tools until they have had my safety lectures. In the case of using a chainsaw, I make them watch a safety video first.
So if there is a kid staying at my house who has not been taught to follow rules, then I make it my business to change that. With many things it is not so important that they do as they are told. But with other safety related things, there is no leeway.
The father should not wait for YOU to enforce HIS words. He needs to learn how to enforce his own statements.
Well exactly. He is young and is learning how to be a parent. Also he is not one to exactly follow rules himself - spent a LOT of time in the principal's office when he was in high school if you know what I mean.
Anyway it is fun to watch him slowly transition from being a "rule breaker" to being an "enforcer of rules". I think he will be one to say later on... "Do as I say, not as I do."
Well exactly. He is young and is learning how to be a parent. Also he is not one to exactly follow rules himself - spent a LOT of time in the principal's office when he was in high school if you know what I mean.
I have a 3 year old. She is not able to sit quietly for more than a few minutes in public settings that require it. This was one of the red flags on her special ed evaluations, which specifically asked about this skill. So I guess that "typically developing" children this age are probably expected to do better at this than my child does at this. We went to the aquarium this weekend and watched the live diver program. My 3yo sat and looked at the fish with me for maybe 10 minutes, and then got up and wandered around a little bit. She wasn't making a scene or being noisy, so I let her do this. My 6yo was interested in the program and I wanted her to be able to see it. There were other toddlers doing the same, so I didn't think it was a big deal. But perhaps if you had been there you would have found that inappropriate for a 3yo.
Regarding the choices, this dad may be implementing natural consequences (perhaps intentionally, perhaps not). This is where a child makes choices, and then deals with the natural consequences to those choices. For example, child refuses to put on a jacket, child is cold. Child leaves her toy out, dog chews up toy and ruins it. Child doesn't eat breakfast, child is hungry. Child hits friend, friend no longer wants to play with child. Etc. There are also logical consequences, which can be implemented by the parent. Child runs into street when walking to car, child has to hold hands in the future. Child throws toy, child loses access to toy. Etc. Anyway, this method relies on the child making choices, and then experiencing natural or logical consequences. Logical consequences are always directly related to the situation, so they are NOT things like time out, spanking, loss of TV privledges, etc. Natural consequences are not going to be appropriate in safety situations because the consequences are too severe - ie play with chainsaw, cut your hand off. Instead, I would remove access to the dangerous items, and make sure the child is supervised around the items.
I have a 3 year old. She is not able to sit quietly for more than a few minutes in public settings that require it. This was one of the red flags on her special ed evaluations, which specifically asked about this skill. So I guess that "typically developing" children this age are probably expected to do better at this than my child does at this. We went to the aquarium this weekend and watched the live diver program. My 3yo sat and looked at the fish with me for maybe 10 minutes, andthen got up and wandered around a little bit. She wasn't making a scene or being noisy, so I let her do this. My 6yo was interested in the program and I wanted her to be able to see it. There were other toddlers doing the same, so I didn't think it was a big deal. But perhaps if you had been there you would have found that inappropriate for a 3yo.
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One problem I have encountered is that the 3 year old girl will talk when other people are talking. And I recently took them both to a kid’s science presentation where there was an audience and someone speaking. The kid kept talking and no one around her could hear what the speaker was saying.
I just wanted to point out that you and the OP are talking about two different behaviors. "My 3yo sat and looked at the fish with me for maybe 10 minutes, andthen got up and wandered around a little bit. She wasn't making a scene or being noisy" the 3 year old with OP "kept talking and no one around her could hear what the speaker was saying". The first behavior is usually considered OK for a preschooler and the second is generally considered inappropriate behavior that should be corrected at the time.
...My 3yo sat and looked at the fish with me for maybe 10 minutes, and then got up and wandered around a little bit. She wasn't making a scene or being noisy, so I let her do this... ...There were other toddlers doing the same, so I didn't think it was a big deal. But perhaps if you had been there you would have found that inappropriate for a 3yo.
I would have no problem with what your 3yo did. So long as she was not blocking anyone's view of what was going on. And not talking / making noise to the extent other people could not hear what was being said.
When other people can't see or hear, then it is an issue so far as I am concerned. (Being disrespectful of other people, common courtesy, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive
Regarding the choices, this dad may be implementing natural consequences (perhaps intentionally, perhaps not). This is where a child makes choices, and then deals with the natural consequences to those choices. For example, child refuses to put on a jacket, child is cold. Child leaves her toy out, dog chews up toy and ruins it. Child doesn't eat breakfast, child is hungry. Child hits friend, friend no longer wants to play with child. Etc..
I totally agree with that! That is how I learned a lot of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive
There are also logical consequences, which can be implemented by the parent. Child runs into street when walking to car, child has to hold hands in the future. Child throws toy, child loses access to toy. Etc. Anyway, this method relies on the child making choices, and then experiencing natural or logical consequences. Logical consequences are always directly related to the situation, so they are NOT things like time out, spanking, loss of TV privledges, etc. Natural consequences are not going to be appropriate in safety situations because the consequences are too severe - ie play with chainsaw, cut your hand off. Instead, I would remove access to the dangerous items, and make sure the child is supervised around the items.
With this I think I tend to use logical consequences. For example the kid was constantly interrupting us at a restaurant and then only ate one bite of her meal. So my reaction to that was that I am not going to take her to nice restaurants anymore until she can learn to behave and eat what she says she wants.
That is pretty much the extent of my "punishments". I'm more of a very persistent talker and explainer of rules and why the rules are necessary. I know it will eventually sink in. I don't expect 100% compliance right this second, rather I am happy to see gradual improvement over time (months/years). So for a 3 year old, 10% compliance (or some sort of effort on her part) is acceptable when first learning a new rule.
No effort or out and out defiance is unacceptable.
The father on the other hand gives "time outs". That is not working very well, but I'm not going to say to not do that. That is up to him. What he does is let a problem grow, then suddenly kaboom! Don't do that! Time out!
I on the other hand see a potential problem from its onset, so start in right away giving "guidance". Then it does not grow into a big problem.
I guess I feel lots of little "nips" and "nudges" in the right direction are better than a "bulldozer" later on.
And I prefer "rewards" to "punishments". Once a kid starts heading in the right direction, I take notice, point out the good thing done, then give some sort of reward - sometimes just a thank you.
Well -- now with more information given -- I think the problem would be to have a child in your home that you have no real say over, and the other problem is that it's really up to the parent to decide the rules for his/her child. The girl's father is her parent, you are not -- yet it's your house.
I would find it difficult to live with young children that were not my responsibility and that I'd be overstepping to discipline or whatever. It's minor stuff with this girl but imagine if it was an 8 year who like to run in the house or a child who liked to jump on the couch.
For my kids, they grew up in a more child-centered world. I didn't take them to elegant restaurants and expect them to behave, I would take them to kid-friendly places. I myself don't expect small children to act like adults, I expect them to act like children. I can't remember ever consciously trying to make a 3 year old stop talking -- but I'm sure I would have told one to let me finish talking or to wait until I was off the phone or whatever. I think they have to learn to let others talk, that they can't dominate a conversation, not to butt in, reminding them that someone else is trying to talk, wait their turn.
So if the problem is talking at an inappropriate time, you could guide her by telling her "later", or "right now we can't talk".
And another thing he has said about her when she is not behaving… He says “She chooses to do this or that”. Or “Chooses to not do this or that”. Therefore it is ok! (And I say “Well I choose to not take her anywhere [and pay for it] if she is not going to behave and there is no attempt on your part to make her behave”.)
What I need help with is the “kid chooses to do this or that” thing and allowing her to do as “she chooses”????
That is fine if she chooses to not play a certain game with another kid. Or chooses what she wants to drink for a meal. Etc.
But if she chooses to not follow rules (laws later on) or be respectful of other people?
Please enlighten me (if I need enlightening)!
Ok, I'm probably your age because I agree with you in the old fashioned approach.
One thing though: A three year old should only be making choices when choices are given. If choices are NOT given, she needs to do as she's told until she's mature enough to choose correctly, i.e., being quiet on her own when it's necessary or desirable.
Yes a 3 yr old can be taught. A raised voice should be enough. Or a time out if she is acting out. Taking things away from my son was a biggie. I see it at work dumb parents letting their kid walk all over them. The kid will grow up to be a pain in the butt.
They are cute when they are little, but that child will grow up to a monster if not discipline.
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