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I hope I am not out of line here, and I hope my message is misconstrued and found offensive. But between this and the tantrum, it sounds like you have a combination of allowing him too much in charge-ness and trying to micromanage his behavior.
You are not responsible for whether or not he *sleeps*. You are responsible for him staying in bed. HE is responsible for sleep. Make the quiet bedtime expectation and environment, and sleep will (or won't) come according to his body's needs.
I would recommend a discipline overhaul self study. You have likely seen the three books I post links to all the time. They make a good triumvirate. One gives you a really decent WHY of positive discipline. WHY positive discipline works better and has more lasting positive results than punishment/reward models. One is very good at describing setting effective limits. And one is about fostering cooperation, mutual respect...
Just a thought.
I probably wasn't clear enough in stating that I know I can't make him sleep -- that's impossible. I would like him to get more sleep because I do believe he is tired during the day. What I expect is at bedtime, after stories and lights out, that he stay in bed.
Something I have not mentioned is that for quite a while he had one of us in his room "resting" him until he fell asleep ( that means sitting beside his bed, occasionally rubbing his back). That, like I said, would (and is) often an hour after lights out. How ridiculous is that? So we stopped doing it save for 5 minutes, and say we will check on him every once a while. He would prefer we stay the whole time, but no way, not anymore.
I do agree that he has too much control over us. I do have some insight into that, and we are working on it. I just sent DH a long email at work (sad that email is often how we communicate due to his work schedule) outlining the time out procedure and the whys and wherefores of not "rescuing" DS if he screams for a long time.
Today I bought stuff to make a behavior mod chart, as we've done it in the past with some success. I will address his ability to handle his emotions more effectively (I bought him a squeeze ball to squeeze, he can go to his room and read or play, he can talk about it, he can draw me a picture of his anger). I will also put on there bedtime: if he gets ready without a fuss and stays in his bed with the light out after stories and 5 minutes of "resting" (cuddling and a song). There is a night light so it's not pitch black in there. He has toys on his bed -- he can play quietly until he falls asleep, I don't care.
We just moved to this town 2 weeks ago, and I am looking today for more activities for him so he can get an hour of physical activity a day. DH thinks tai chi or yoga or a martial art would be beneficial.
I have a call in to the school counselor just as a starting point, too.
All I can think of when I read this thread is how much trouble we had with our older son when he was about 2-5. We had trouble getting him to sleep, keeping him asleep and in bed, controlling his impulsiveness, etc. etc. Any time I asked for advice, I was told we were doing something wrong. We were too lenient, we were letting him be in control, we were doing time outs wrong. At age 7 he was finally diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder and anxiety. As hard as it is to find out your child has a disorder, it was very gratifying to finally find out that it wasn't our bad parenting causing his behavior. He now sleeps about 9pm-6am. He still wakes up with nightmares, and almost never sleeps later than 7am no matter what time he goes to bed. He sleeps best with background noise, like music. He has a weighted blanket, but I'm not sure how much that helps. Our days and evenings are pretty structured because he functions better knowing what is coming next.
ETA he also has trouble with transitions, whether it is from summer to school, or from being home to getting on the school bus.
Whatever works. One caution, though I don't have any personal experience here, some sleep experts say that the light of digital devices like tvs and video games serves to reset the circadian rhythm as if the child has slept, making their mind THINK it is time to be awake.
Just something to consider.
That's interesting. Just to clarify - my post was more along the lines of backing up the other posters who let their kids watch TV before bed. Not necessarily suggesting that the OP do it. Also, this occurs before bedtime and stories in bed etc - MissFR doesn't have a TV in her room. We don't really have any sleep issues. She doesn't always fall asleep straight away, but she'll jabber on to her stuffed animals in bed until she does.
OP - I think it's good that you don't stay in his room anymore. I doubt that that helps, given that he's five. Might be more of a distraction for him than anything. Also, is it really necessary to go up and check on him? I would leave him to it. He may be staying awake waiting for you to come back to his room.
ETA - I think rkb has given some excellent advice. My posts are based on you having a child without specific issues. It would probably be prudent to eliminate any of those first.
I don't really go check on him, I just say I will.
rkb: you know, he does have a hard time with noise, just like his father -- he will cover his ears if there is loud music or other noises. I will ask the school counselor (if she ever calls back) who would take a look at him around here.
I probably wasn't clear enough in stating that I know I can't make him sleep -- that's impossible. I would like him to get more sleep because I do believe he is tired during the day. What I expect is at bedtime, after stories and lights out, that he stay in bed.
Something I have not mentioned is that for quite a while he had one of us in his room "resting" him until he fell asleep ( that means sitting beside his bed, occasionally rubbing his back). That, like I said, would (and is) often an hour after lights out. How ridiculous is that? So we stopped doing it save for 5 minutes, and say we will check on him every once a while. He would prefer we stay the whole time, but no way, not anymore.
I do agree that he has too much control over us. I do have some insight into that, and we are working on it. I just sent DH a long email at work (sad that email is often how we communicate due to his work schedule) outlining the time out procedure and the whys and wherefores of not "rescuing" DS if he screams for a long time.
Today I bought stuff to make a behavior mod chart, as we've done it in the past with some success. I will address his ability to handle his emotions more effectively (I bought him a squeeze ball to squeeze, he can go to his room and read or play, he can talk about it, he can draw me a picture of his anger). I will also put on there bedtime: if he gets ready without a fuss and stays in his bed with the light out after stories and 5 minutes of "resting" (cuddling and a song). There is a night light so it's not pitch black in there. He has toys on his bed -- he can play quietly until he falls asleep, I don't care.
We just moved to this town 2 weeks ago, and I am looking today for more activities for him so he can get an hour of physical activity a day. DH thinks tai chi or yoga or a martial art would be beneficial.
I have a call in to the school counselor just as a starting point, too.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
This sounds like great plan Is there a park with one of big wooden playsets? Sometimes just playing without it being an organized activity is very enjoyable. And play with him. I love the swings! I have such good memories of playing outside as a child. Just riding a scooter or bike in the neighborhood or the sidewalk in the park can do wonders for my 5 and 7 year olds. We've met some of our favorite neighbors that way.
In the past I've been guilty of over-scheduling my kids with organized activities. I have 6 children 5, 7, 14, 15, 18 and 20. We were in the car or at practice, lessons, or a game, performance, concert, recital- ALL THE TIME! Our schedule is much better and we're all a little more relaxed.
I don't really go check on him, I just say I will.
rkb: you know, he does have a hard time with noise, just like his father -- he will cover his ears if there is loud music or other noises. I will ask the school counselor (if she ever calls back) who would take a look at him around here.
The signs can be very subtle. DS8 is a sensory seeker, so he's constantly looking for sensory input. But, he also covers his ears around loud noises. That was one of the last straws that sent us to have an eval. Our smoke alarm went off in the middle of the night. DS6 barely opened one eye and went back to sleep. DS8 covered his ears and cried. Even after it was over, he was still covering his ears and looking very tense.
Dragonfly, oh, just shoot me! I can't imagine that.
I was thinking one more "class" type activity a week. Otherwise, we can walk a trail behind our house that leads eventually to the school grounds, where the brand new playground awaits!
That's interesting. Just to clarify - my post was more along the lines of backing up the other posters who let their kids watch TV before bed. Not necessarily suggesting that the OP do it. Also, this occurs before bedtime and stories in bed etc - MissFR doesn't have a TV in her room. We don't really have any sleep issues. She doesn't always fall asleep straight away, but she'll jabber on to her stuffed animals in bed until she does.
OP - I think it's good that you don't stay in his room anymore. I doubt that that helps, given that he's five. Might be more of a distraction for him than anything. Also, is it really necessary to go up and check on him? I would leave him to it. He may be staying awake waiting for you to come back to his room.
Regarding the staying in the room with him and rubbing his back for an hour:
How long ago did you stop doing this? Did you go from an hour straight to 5 minutes or did you do it gradually? You say that you moved 2 weeks ago - was this change just since then?
I used to stay in the room with my older daughter until she was about 2.5 years old. Around that time, it started to be more distracting to her for me to be there and it became easier for her to fall asleep without me, so that's when we stopped doing it. When I stopped, I did it gradually though. I would stay for a few minutes, then tell her that I had to go to the potty and would be right back. Then I might have to go put the laundry in and I'll be right back. Etc. I always came back, but I stretched the intervals to be longer each night. After a while, I told her I'm going to go in the other room and watch a TV show with Daddy, and I'll come check on you when it's over. She was not upset because she knew that I DID come back. Eventually, I would come back and she had fallen asleep. I don't think a sudden change is easy for kids to deal with - I prefer a gradual approach.
That trail sounds fun! More than yoga or tai chi I do love yoga, though.
We love the park/school playground. I'll take drinks and snacks or a picnic and a blanket. With the right weather, this is just what my kids need after being inside a school for 7-8 hours.
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I do love yoga, though. 
